Re: Greyhawk Grumbler

Re: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumbler
Sunday, November 15, 2009 4:07 PM
From: "Mark Carscadden"
To: "'greytalk'"

True, but IMO he would have at least implied printing presses existed somewhere - hey, it's not a big deal one way or the other for me, I just don't think it feels right.

----- Original Message -----
From: Vest III, Robert W
To: 'greytalk'
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 1:59 PM
Subject: RE: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumbler

I’m sure there are hundreds of things EGG didn’t bother mentioning simply because he didn’t feel such things necessary to play the game. After all, a printing press isn’t near as exciting as a city full of killer robots.

From: Mark Carscadden [mailto:markcarscadden@shaw.ca]
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 4:46 PM
To: 'greytalk'
Subject: Re: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumbler

I think a printing press is something that would be a better fit in the FR setting, IMO. Gygax would have certainly at least briefly mentioned something as significant as a printing press if it existed in his setting. But as always, that's the way it will be in MY Greyhawk campaign...

----- Original Message -----

From: Wade Nolen
To: 'greytalk'
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 1:36 PM
Subject: RE: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumbler

Insisting that the print run of the Grumbler is more than the population of the Free City of Greyhawk itself is the utmost sheer folly.

And beyond that … the “single guy” is doing the same thing in CoGH … no one said that these things are everywhere. No one said that there are more than just the Grumbler (although we know that there are two.) This is a localized thing, specific to Greyhawk City, and what’s more, there’s nothing (of which I am aware, other than the author’s post-script here) that it’s not wood-block printing, or something other than the “mechanized” stuff that you insist on. There were printing presses long before Industrialization or the Mechanized era.

Signature
Wade K. Nolen
aka "Icarus "
I'm off to gallivant among the clouds!
" ... and he did fly, and he was seen on the wings of the wind."

From: CJ MacLean [mailto:icar@shaw.ca]
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 2:57 PM
To: 'greytalk'
Subject: RE: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumbler

I'm not talking about a single guy with bits of clay producing 20 copies of something. I am talking about the level of mechanization society has to have for a press run of 5000-30,000 (or more).

From: Vest III, Robert W [mailto:rvest@ius.edu]
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 1:15 PM
To: 'greytalk'
Subject: RE: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumbler

There is actually a canonical precedent for having printing presses in the Flanaess. See the Age of Worms backdrop article on Alhaster (Dungeon 131), which mentions an underground broadsheet in Alhaster called The Sinchaser Report.

Re: greytalk Digest 24 Nov 2009 04:14:43 -0000 Issue 1134

Re: greytalk Digest 24 Nov 2009 04:14:43 -0000 Issue 1134
Monday, November 23, 2009 11:18 PM
From: "Brian McRae"
To: greytalk-digest-help@canonfire.com
Cc: greytalk@canonfire.com

Reminds me of something that a scholarly wizard did in my campaign. The wizard chronicled his adventures through the Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun in great detail, and had 200 hand-scribed copies made at great expense. He was amazed at how quickly the copies sold. After a visit from representatives of some very powerful and influential religions and arch-mages. He kind of understood that the books were likely being studied by top men. Top men.

As to printing, wood block print would work well, and even simple movable type(wood letter blocks in a frame) is doable. However, with spells like copy(a dirt cheap 1st level spell from the 2e "Wizard's Handbook") in existence, if it does exist in a particular DM's campaign, circulating even books becomes much more simple. Now, with regards to movable type, it would take even less time and expense to just have a spell caster cast a spell that changes the shape of the wood block stamp to be embossed with reverse images of the required type/images, and then you just print as much as you want to. Simple tech more easily implemented by the simple application of magic.

On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 8:14 PM, wrote:

greytalk Digest 24 Nov 2009 04:14:43 -0000 Issue 1134
Topics (messages 13419 through 13422):
Re: Greyhawk Grumbler
13419 by: ukegreg
13420 by: Kent Goertzen
13421 by: Chris Anderson
13422 by: Tracy Johnson

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---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: "ukegreg"
To: "'greytalk'"
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 09:50:27 -0800
Subject: RE: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumbler

If you want historical precedent for printing I recommend “woodblock prints”. You take a block of wood and carve it into a huge ink stamp basically. The effort it takes to create a set of hardwood plates for one ‘book’ is enormous though. Only major religions and/or countries would bother, and then only for super important books.

I agree with the others that an easily modifiable mass-produced newspaper is probably beyond the scope of the setting. Ideally technology should advance to prevent a setting from stagnating, but if you aren’t careful you might ruin the atmosphere. It’s also worth noting that there are some VERY smart villains in the campaign setting who would feel threatened by a printing press and try to subvert or destroy it immediately. If you’ve got PC’s running it they might get in serious trouble for printing the wrong thing. Imagine the party bard composing some super-motivational “Anti-Iuz” article and then spreading two hundred thousand copies throughout the Flanaess…

“Master, you need to have a look at this…”
“WHERE THE HELL DID THIS COME FROM!?”
“I guess there’s some guy in Greyhawk City making them.”
“HOW LONG HAS THIS BEEN GOING ON!?”
“Couple of months I guess. He’s got this really talented bard doing the illustrations.”
“ILLUSTRATIONS!?”
“Yep. There’s a naked tri-fold drawing of your mom on page 17. Apparently Iggwilv made scantily-clad-sorceress of the month. They’re calling her ‘Miss Fireseek’. We’ve seen them pinned-up in every barracks in Furyo-”
“FIIIIIIND HIIIIIIIIIIIM!!!!”

From: Vest III, Robert W [mailto:rvest@ius.edu]
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 12:15 PM
To: 'greytalk'
Subject: RE: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumbler

There is actually a canonical precedent for having printing presses in the Flanaess. See the Age of Worms backdrop article on Alhaster (Dungeon 131), which mentions an underground broadsheet in Alhaster called The Sinchaser Report.

From: CJ MacLean [mailto:icar@shaw.ca]
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 3:04 PM
To: 'greytalk'
Subject: RE: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumbler

From: Wade Nolen [mailto:icarusatb@yahoo.com]

"I’m beginning to think that people aren’t listening to points being made, because all three of these have been refuted, over and over."

Me too. The kind of broadsheet designed to be read by thousands of people didn't happen until the mechanized printing press. Commoners didn't have access to newspapers until the 19th century, even now in unindustrialized nations newspapers can be hard to find because paper isn't a commodity that is easy to get or make without industrialization/motorization.

The examples that you keep pulling out to defend your arguments are edicts or proclamations that were read by an official and then posted in a public place, NOT given to every commoner to read. Even the later broadsheets were for merchants and the upper class not for lower caste society.

In game terms paper is costly, depending on where you look a single sheet is 1gp or more. To circulate a paper of 5000 copies (a reasonable amount given Greyhawks size) and sell it for a copper piece would mean a massive loss per issue. This cost doesn't reflect the cost of the machine/spell/scribes/time/ink/retailers that would also be needed to make the newspaper exist. No one could afford to take this loss, and no powerful businessman would lose this cash when they can hire a bard, beggar, crier, or rumormonger to get the information out at a fraction of the cost.

A newspaper doesn't make business sense, It would most likely be suppressed by the government, and while it may be historically possible to create a broadsheet, it isn't historically possible to have the circulation it would need to reach a debatably literate peasant population.

CJ

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Kent Goertzen
To:
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 13:46:49 -0600
Subject: RE: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumbler

Time, effort (woodblock prints for example), and cost (paper really wouldn't be cheap in that period), would really prohibit it.

As far as a setting precedent, Forgotten Realms right before the switch to 4e Chapbooks filtering around Water deep weren't uncommon. But only those who were wealthy were really able to afford to produce them. Not sure what time period you've moved forward to. Living Greyhawk would probably be a 200-400 years behind where Forgotten Realms was in terms of technological advancement. Where FR is closer to 15th-17th century and GH closer to 13th-14th imo.

Kent Goertzen

From: ukegreg@yahoo.com

“Master, you need to have a look at this…”
“WHERE THE HELL DID THIS COME FROM!?”
“I guess there’s some guy in Greyhawk City making them.”
“HOW LONG HAS THIS BEEN GOING ON!?”
“Couple of months I guess. He’s got this really talented bard doing the illustrations.”
“ILLUSTRATIONS!?”
“Yep. There’s a naked tri-fold drawing of your mom on page 17. Apparently Iggwilv made scantily-clad-sorceress of the month. They’re calling her ‘Miss Fireseek’. We’ve seen them pinned-up in every barracks in Furyo-”
“FIIIIIIND HIIIIIIIIIIIM!!!!”
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Lol, :D

Bing brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. Try it now.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Chris Anderson
To: Kent Goertzen
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 17:34:38 -0800
Subject: Re: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumbler

Paper costs are not a problem. They are based on historical western European paper costs... so you would think that they are accurate, but they're not.

Western Europeans lost access to cheap writing paper when the Mediterranean was blockaded by the Arabs in the 700's. Papyrus is extremely cheap to make, lasts a long time, and is able to be printed on. However, when Islam took away Egypt and northern Africa, and conquered Spain, western Europe lost access to papyrus.

As a result, they turned to vellum/parchment... which is a processed animal hide. Making vellum is expensive in time, materials, and skills. So much so, that vellum was traditionally reused by scraping it clean of ink.

Rag paper was a closely guarded secret that traveled from China. Those who knew how to make it forced you to pay dearly for it... they could do this because there was no cheaper alternative. Prices for rag paper were relatively low in the middle east, because it had to compete with papyrus. They were higher in western Europe because the only competition was vellum/parchment.

So, without the Arab blockade of the Mediterranean, prices for paper in western Europe would not have been high.

You can tell this because costs of paper in Roman times were low... because trade flowed freely to Egypt. However, costs of paper in Italy during the middle ages was high, because there was no trade to Egypt.

Now, in Greyhawk, there is no Arab blockade. Trade flows freely (with some local exceptions). There is no need for high paper prices due to artificial shortages.

Woodblocks are not costly to make compared to copyists, and there is a really, really good reason to use them instead of copyists: reducing mistakes.

Copyists produced many grammar and subject matter mistakes due to the process. During Carolingian times, this was such a problem that new fonts, grammar, and punctuation were introduced in an effort to reduce copyist mistakes.

Woodblocks, once they're correct, are perfect time and again until the wood is pressed down over time and it has to be created again.

Now for rapidly changing news, I would agree that carving a woodblock over the course of a day to tell the day's news won't happen. But for news that needs to be reproduced exactly, or for holy books, or for items which must not have mistakes, it's a perfect solution.

-- Chris

On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 11:46 AM, Kent Goertzen wrote:

Time, effort (woodblock prints for example), and cost (paper really wouldn't be cheap in that period), would really prohibit it.

As far as a setting precedent, Forgotten Realms right before the switch to 4e Chapbooks filtering around Water deep weren't uncommon. But only those who were wealthy were really able to afford to produce them. Not sure what time period you've moved forward to. Living Greyhawk would probably be a 200-400 years behind where Forgotten Realms was in terms of technological advancement. Where FR is closer to 15th-17th century and GH closer to 13th-14th imo.

Kent Goertzen

From: ukegreg@yahoo.com

“Master, you need to have a look at this…”
“WHERE THE HELL DID THIS COME FROM!?”
“I guess there’s some guy in Greyhawk City making them.”
“HOW LONG HAS THIS BEEN GOING ON!?”
“Couple of months I guess. He’s got this really talented bard doing the illustrations.”
“ILLUSTRATIONS!?”
“Yep. There’s a naked tri-fold drawing of your mom on page 17. Apparently Iggwilv made scantily-clad-sorceress of the month. They’re calling her ‘Miss Fireseek’. We’ve seen them pinned-up in every barracks in Furyo-”
“FIIIIIIND HIIIIIIIIIIIM!!!!”

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Lol, :D

Bing brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. Try it now.


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Tracy Johnson
To: greytalk list
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 21:38:30 -0500
Subject: Re: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumbler
On Mon, 2009-11-23 at 17:34 -0800, Chris Anderson wrote:
> Paper costs are not a problem. They are based on historical western
> European paper costs... so you would think that they are accurate, but
> they're not.
>

I don't think it matters as far as a Fantasy setting is concerned. The
overuse of magic bypassed the use of paper. I compare this to the
ubiquitous rise of today's Internet. Because of it, the traditional
newspaper is failing, because they cannot find a business model that
will support paper. (Similar to game companies that publish paper are
going under.)

Much in the same way, the all-pervasive use of scrying, seeking,
clairvoyant, clairaudience type of magic doesn't not allow a newspaper
business model to develop, because the opportunity was bypassed.
Besides, there are easier ways to find news in Greyhawk!

As was noticed on by an intern looking over the shoulder of Otiluke in
standing before one of the numerous Palantir's at the Greyhawk school of
magic library:







...

--
BT
Tracy Johnson
Old telnet games at 198.212.189.111

NNNN

Re: Greyhawk Grumbler

Re: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumbler
Monday, November 16, 2009 10:37 AM
From: "Chris Anderson"
To: "Mark Carscadden" Cc: "greytalk"

Just so we're clear... the first printing presses were simply weights pressing wood block type down onto paper. I think that's well within Greyhawk's technical base.

Later on, the screw was introduced... so that you could screw a flat plate down against the woodblock, against the paper.

-- Chris

On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 1:45 PM, Mark Carscadden wrote:

I think a printing press is something that would be a better fit in the FR setting, IMO. Gygax would have certainly at least briefly mentioned something as significant as a printing press if it existed in his setting. But as always, that's the way it will be in MY Greyhawk campaign...
----- Original Message -----
From: Wade Nolen
To: 'greytalk'
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 1:36 PM
Subject: RE: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumbler

Insisting that the print run of the Grumbler is more than the population of the Free City of Greyhawk itself is the utmost sheer folly.

And beyond that … the “single guy” is doing the same thing in CoGH … no one said that these things are everywhere. No one said that there are more than just the Grumbler (although we know that there are two.) This is a localized thing, specific to Greyhawk City, and what’s more, there’s nothing (of which I am aware, other than the author’s post-script here) that it’s not wood-block printing, or something other than the “mechanized” stuff that you insist on. There were printing presses long before Industrialization or the Mechanized era.

Wade K. Nolen
aka "Icarus "

I'm off to gallivant among the clouds!
" ... and he did fly, and he was seen on the wings of the wind."

From: CJ MacLean [mailto:icar@shaw.ca]
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 2:57 PM
To: 'greytalk'
Subject: RE: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumbler

I'm not talking about a single guy with bits of clay producing 20 copies of something. I am talking about the level of mechanization society has to have for a press run of 5000-30,000 (or more).

From: Vest III, Robert W [mailto:rvest@ius.edu]
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 1:15 PM
To: 'greytalk'
Subject: RE: [greytalk] Greyhawk Grumbler

There is actually a canonical precedent for having printing presses in the Flanaess. See the Age of Worms backdrop article on Alhaster (Dungeon 131), which mentions an underground broadsheet in Alhaster called The Sinchaser Report.

Re: just catching up on stuff

From: HRADEK, ROBERT
Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 1997 10:39 AM
To: Recipients of GREYTALK digests
Subject: RE: just catching up on stuff

SCOTT CASPER wrote:
>It ticks me off that there’s too many discussions going on here for me to participate in all of >them. That means – gasp – some of you aren’t hearing my opinions!

Agreed, though it could also be because my opinions are not of interest to most on this list. I was one of the starters of the pot

>He equates Pholtus with Christianity, but is a lesser sun god really the most appropriate >analogy? I would have to pick at least two gods to represent the dualism of Christianity – >Zodal for the good side, mercy and benevolence, and St. Cuthbert for the bad side, ruthless >expansionism.

I believe that all of the gods were designed as aspects of Christianity in the WoG setting. It is what westerners are first off, more familiar with, which is also why WoG has pantheonistic religions mirroring those of the ious believers.

>My interpretation (inspired by a fellow gamer) has always been that the Suloise and Baklunish >were highly advanced civilizations with nuclear technology, making the WoG really just a >variant of Gamma World (or vice versa). The “Rain of Colorless Fire” was just a euphemism >for radiation fallout.

Actually I had come to this conclusion for a while also, especially with machines like the Apparatus of Kwalish and Lum and Leuk-ohuman looking androids on I hinting that it may have been a from a human space colony from Oerth’s past. Not to mention other little clues, even though most likely put there just for an in joke amongst game designers, like a model of trine of Tomoachan. Maybe even the ship in the Barrier Peaks is the Warden….