Deeces

My birfday was last week and my wonderful wife got me some funky Zocchi dice.  Those are the crystal blue and red ones in the bottom of the pic.  I ordered the 2d7 and a precision edge d30 to complete the set.  It's a little weird that for all his patter about the superiority of his precision edge dice, Colonel Lou only sells d7's as round-edged, pre-inked jobbies.

I inked these dice with an extra fine Pilot brand silver paint pen.  I first tried using a black ultra fine Sharpie, my usual inking tool, but it just didn't show well with these translucent dice.  Unfortunately, I wasn't used to working with a paint pen and made a bit of a hash of it.  The extra paint ought to wear off with use.  One of the d24 has the largest sprue flaw I've ever seen in Gamescience die, such that I feel I'm going to have to sand it before I use it.  The other d24 is just fine, though.

The other dice are Koplow and Chessex blanks.  I've had blank d6's for years.  The blank d8, 10 and d12's I got last weekend in Bloomington, IL.  My excellent local game store, Armored Gopher Games, chose not to participate in Free RPG Day.  Something about not liking the terms for getting the goodies.  Anyway, I really wanted the freebie Dungeon Crawl Classics module and I was going to Bloomington anyway, so I swung by Gryfalia's Aerie to get it.  I only had about 2 minutes to visit their new shop, but it seemed like a nice place.  They had some blank dice on display, so I got some.

The d6's and d8's at the top of the picture are slot and zowie slot dice respectively.  The rules for gambling with slot dice are in Appendix F of the original Dungeon Masters Guide.  The basic deal is that payouts are made against two cherries and anything else or three of a kind, with a sliding scale topping out at three cherries (36:1 payout) for the d6 variety or three crowns with the eight siders (100:1 payout).  I made a set of slot dice once before and they were a big hit with the players, but the ink wore off.  So this time I sprayed the dice with a clear acrylic.

The other dice are attempts to make cheap substitutes for some of the weirdo Zocchi dice.  I plan on using the real deal Zocchi dice myself, but buying enough for everyone at the table seemed costly. The d6's are d3's marked with Roman numerals.  The d10's are labeled 1 to 5 twice.  If I had been thinking I would have put a plus sign on half the numbers, so they could also work as regular dice.  The d8's have a red letter 'R' for reroll instead of an 8.  And the d20's double as both d14 and d16.  Four faces on each are blank.  The fifteen and sixteen are red, to remind you to only use them if rolling a d16.

my last post on funky dice for a while

This chart is based upon the responses to question #4 in my post last Friday, asking if the weirdo dice used by DCC changed your opinion of the game. I've posted excerpts of all the results counted below the jump.  There's a little room for interpretation as to where certain responses should be counted, but I doubt the general shape of the chart would change much.

When I first heard the DCC rpg was using the oddball Zocchi dice I thought it was a stupid gimmick as well. Playing in last GaryCon's playtest/demo session and reading the beta has completely turned me around. I see several good implementations of these dice. And the idea of having to remember "Oh, yeah. I need to reroll any 8's every time I make this roll" gets my goat.  So for my birthday next week I'm getting oddly shaped pieces of plastic. (Not the first time.)

I can totally empathize with people who wince at the additional cost or the prospect of convincing their game group to buy these dice. Since I run an open game at my local gamestore if I want to run the DCC rpg I'm pretty much setting myself up to buy dice for a whole game group.  But when I think about all the money I've sunk in read-but-never-played rulebooks and used-once-for-that-one-awesome-fight miniatures over the years, my fairly meagre dice collection starts to look one of the better investments I've made in the hobby.

If you think the DCC rpg is a dice-selling racket...

...there are alternatives to funding Colonel Zocchi's retirement.

My buddy Stuart owns a d6 labeled 1 to 3 twice.  The number is in a weird font so it's easy to pick out on the table.  I'm not sure where to buy one though.

Chessex sells blank polyhedrals.  You could make your own cubical d3.  A d10 numbered 1-5 twice ought to be a snap as well.  The d7 could be d8 with the 8 replaced with an R for "reroll that sucker".  A blank d20 with four or six R spaces could be used for a d14 or d16.

The d24 is slightly trickier.  I'm pretty sure Chessex makes d24's.  I think the non-precision d24's I own are by them.  Another route for a d24 is to number the faces of a d12 "1/2", "3/4", "5/6", etc.  Some rolls you won't need to distimguish which number of the pair you got.  For those times when it would make a difference, any other even sided die could be rolled for high/low. 

(If you don't already own a d30, you need to hop on the bandwagon.)

Maybe someone could talk Crystal Caste to manufacture some of their signature prism-shaped dice to fit the sizes needed.  Or some 3-D printing/fast prototyping people could get on the case.  A sculptor who works with CAD/CAM type software may be able to produce whole new shapes for our random number needs.

Or we could all go back to drawing chits from a cup.  I suppose nowadays instead of cardstock squares we could paint numbers on those little glass beads and put them in tiny bags.

QUICK UPDATE

Kevin Cook, the Dice Collector, suggests Shapeways as a place to get weird dice.  Doesn't look cheap, but there's a d7 with symmetrical faces right on the first page.

UPDATE 2

So you don't have to sift through 27 pages of weirdo dice (though don't let me stop you), here are the ones I found relevant to this discussion:

d3
http://www.shapeways.com/model/259268/prime_3_solid_.html

d5
http://www.shapeways.com/model/84613/d5_jack.html
http://www.shapeways.com/model/259269/prime_5_solid_.html

d7
http://www.shapeways.com/model/228086/cycle_d7.html
http://www.shapeways.com/model/259270/prime_7_solid_.html
http://www.shapeways.com/model/124316/d7_cone.html
http://www.shapeways.com/model/195901/d14_num_1_7.html

d14
http://www.shapeways.com/model/239162/cuboctahedron_d14_dice.htm

d16
none

d24
http://www.shapeways.com/model/239970/triakis_octahedron_d24_dice.html (Is this one stable?)
http://www.shapeways.com/model/239370/diamond_icositetrahedron_d24_dice.html
http://www.shapeways.com/model/239749/pentagonal_icositetrahedron_d24.html

d30
http://www.shapeways.com/model/279673/d30_solid.html

Update 3
RPG Shop sells non-precision d10's marked 1-5 twice: http://www.rpgshop.com/d-and-d-dice-and-bags/d10-sets/20mm-d10-w-1-5-twice-die-1.html

Dude, have you seen these weird sixers?

Just found these moments ago.  They're from some sort of collectible dice game and they look cool as all get out to me.  More info here.

ridiculous quiz results time!

I came across this quiz over at Dungeoneering Dad.



You are a d8: You are the true adventurer! Dragons rescued, princesses slayed, and all that business while O Fortuna plays in the background. Your social calender is crammed with heroic deeds, and you've personally saved the world from ultimate destruction at least twice. You are reliable, perhaps a bit predictable, but overall a shining example of what happens when courage meets determination.

Take the quiz at dicepool.com

inking GameScience dice

My recent visit to Games Plus affords me an opportunity to share with you the method I've developed for inking GameScience dice. Last year I switched exclusively to GameScience as my dice of choice, as explained here. One of the big differences between GameScience and its competition is that the dice come with no pigment in the numbers, so they have to be "inked".

The traditional technique is to rub a crayon repeatedly across the number and then wipe away the considerable excess with a tissue or paper towel. That's why old boxed sets use to come with crayons. There's nothing particularly wrong with doing it the old way, but it could take a while. Also, the GameScience d10's have this circular groove that can catch some of the crayon and be a pain to get out. Like this:

So I developed an alternative to the crayon. I start with washing the dice in some water with just a touch of dish soap.

I wash the dice because they are manufactured using an injection molding technique. Injection molding often requires the spray of a release agent on the inside of the mold before the plastic (or whatever) is squirted in. This helps the finished product separate cleanly from the mold, the way a little butter in a pan helps keep the food you're frying from sticking. Washing the dice gets that agent off of them. At least that is true assuming a release agent is used. I don't really have any information on that point, but serious miniature painters recommend washing your figures for the same reasons.

I pat the dice dry with a paper towel then let them air dry for a few minutes.


Instead of a crayon, I use a Sharpie Ultra Fine Point permanent marker. I've seen them for sale at office supply stores, department stores and even the home office section of my local drugstore. You can get a pack of several colors for a few bucks. I usually use black but sometimes I select a color that contrasts the dice.

The neat thing is that the Ultra Fine Point fits right into the groove of the numbers. Two or three passes through the groove is sufficient to coat the entire recessed surface of the number as well as the walls of the groove. Just trace the number as if you were writing it, reverse direction and write it backward, then write it forward again.

Tip #1 - If after three passes you can still see the color of the dice in the number, you're probably pressing too hard. Ease up a bit and try again. If that doesn't work, you might want to switch to another color, probably black.

Tip #2 - If you color outside the lines, do not panic! Wipe away as much of the stray ink as you can with a paper towel and possibly a little saliva, but don't fret if a smear is left behind. Any ink not in a groove will be gone after only a few sessions of use.

Tip #3 - Do the d20 and d00 last. The smaller numbers require slightly finer manipulation and the practice of doing the bigger numbers first will help you get your technique down. I often do the other dice then take a short break because my left hand (which I hold the die with as I ink) is a little cramped up after the first five dice.

Dice Idiosyncrasies

My recent non-exposé of Lou Zocchi has gotten me thinking more about dice. Unlike many players I’ve known over the years, I’ve never been particularly superstitious about dice. I’ve never had a set or even a single die that I cherished because I thought it was luckier than other polyhedrals. I used to be a little smug about that, but thanks to Colonel Lou now I know that lots of hobby dice really do get skewed results. I do have lots of other little psychological quirks when it comes to dice, though. Here are a few of them.

1) Mixing dice with numerals and dice with pips in a single roll is anathema to me. If I have to roll a bunch of sixers for a fireball or something, I always try to roll one kind of d6 or the other. I get tripped up adding all the dice if the numbers are represented in two different formats.

2) I like percentile dice for sci-fi games and Call of Cthulhu, and that’s about it. I much prefer d6-based resolution or mixed handfuls of polyhedrons for other genres. I think my mind perceives percentile dice and base ten math as more scientific. This delusion is probably related to how I prefer metric measurements in sci-fi and imperial measurements in fantasy.

3) When I set up for a game that uses lotsa different dice, I begin each session by sorting the die types into the groups. All the d20’s go in one spot, all the d6’s in another, etc. Ostensibly I do this to make finding the right dice easier during play, but the real reason is an obsessive need to sort the dice.

4) I generally prefer rolling one or two dice for standard actions. Three dice for resolution isn’t a deal-breaker, but the rest of the system has to be good. Personally, GURPS doesn’t quite make the cut. HERO System used to, but the constant need to roll ten or twenty dice for damage drug it down. Four dice for resolving a standard dice-needing action requires a truly superb game, like Risus. Pretty much any game that actually has the phrase “dice pool” in it just isn’t going to light my jets.

4a) Counting “successes” sucks donkey balls. Please quit mangling the word “success” while simultaneously calling on the players to count/add something besides the numbers on the dice! There. I said it. And I’m not taking it back.

5) I like the occasional, spectacular giant fistful o’ dice as a way to punctuate that something awesome is happening. I.e. a bucket of dice for an occasional fireball is just dandy in my book. Or rolling 30d10 to determine exactly how many orcs are ruining your wilderness expedition.

6) You know all those dice that have something cool on them besides numbers? Like skulls for the sixes or a die that rolls what kind of trap you encounter or something like that? The dice companies need to either make sure that stuff doesn’t rub off the die or quit making the damn things. I’m still burned about my ghost die mysteriously mutating into a cubical d5.

7) Speckled dice? Translucent gem dice? You know what kind of dice I like best? The kind you can frickin’ read under the less-than-ideal lighting conditions of a random con event or game store demo.

8) Occasionally I’ve heard people talk up those d10’s marked 00, 10, 20, etc because they discourage cheating on percentile throws. Personally I like them because in the split second between selecting a tens die and rolling the pair I often forget which die is which. Yes, I am that dumb.

9) I like dice that are purple. Green dice are cool, too.

The Diceman Cometh

Fairly recently a couple of youtube videos have been making the rounds. These clips are a recording at the most recent GenCon of Lou Zocchi giving his infamous spiel about dice. Before I go any further, I want to make sure everyone reading this understands that Zocchi is maybe one of the most underappreciated figures in the hobby. He's designed some great games, such as his Star Fleet Battle Manual. I've never had the chance to play SFBM but on paper it looks a lot more like what I wanted Task Force's Star Fleet Battles to be. He's published great stuff done by other people, such as the generic stat version of Bob Bledsaw's wicked awesome haunted house dungeon Tegel Manor. And in the early days of the hobby he was the only place to go for polyhedrals. I have huge respect for the man and everything he's done for our crazy little hobby.

But when I first watched those videos I linked above, I did so intently but not reverently. Colonel Zocchi's explanations and demonstrations arguing for the superiority of his dice were very interesting stuff. But at the end I asked myself "Is this just a sales pitch?" After all, I don't know crap about making dice. Why should I take Lou Zocchi's word on dice, knowing that he's an interested party in the affair?

So I asked some people for a second opinion. Specifically, I emailed three dice outfits (Chessex, Koplow, and Crystal Caste) and Kevin Cook, a.k.a. the Dice Collector. I sent them all links to the videos and asked for their take on the situation. Mr. Cook was the first one to get back to me. Here's what he said:

I have known Louis Zocchi since 1988 and he has come to become one of my favorite people

He is a showman ... he is very frugal ... but he is not a Liar nor does he stretch the truth

His demonstration does show the tolerances that GameScience dice have ... that other manufacturers do not

Dr Daniel Murray in Canada (developer of a dice rolling and recording machine) tested Gamescience dice and found that they are indeed as close to random as are possible with current mass production techniques

Obviously the Dice Collector isn't an impartial observer either, but this bit about Dr. Murray seems sound. I've also heard back from two of the three members of the distinguished competition. One of the nice folks at Crystal Caste declined to make a detailed comment, offering only that Zocchi was a friend but they disagreed on some points. That seems like a fair reply to me. No need to step on anyone's toes in what is a small industry. Chessex offers a longer response, which I will quote in full:

Much of what Lou discusses in the video about production of dice is accurate, however much of it is based on production in the 70's and 80's, such as the old TSR dice that were in the D&D Basic Set he mentioned (which were very poor quality dice). We used to import dice from Asia in the 1980's, but gradually went away from those sources for many of the reasons Lou articulated and stopped buying dice from Asia in the early to mid 1990's. Since then, our dice are manufactured from molds we had made for the factories in Europe and we feel make well-balanced dice. I am not sure of the exact tolerances from face to face, but the last time we checked, they seemed pretty close to each other. Having said all this, for the customers who we see at shows, a surprising number of them actually want dice that seem to roll high or in a certain way. Besides, every one is looking for their "lucky" die. So, the question really is how important are the dice to be perfectly balanced?

Nearly all that Lou talked about did not pertain to our dice since the focus of his video was his dice versus dice made in China or Taiwan. The only part of his video that was directed towards us were the use of lamps at our booth to highlight our dice. The biggest reason we have the lamps is because we sell at a lot of show venues where the lighting is terrible, so poor that it is often difficult to distinguish colors like blue and purple apart from one another. We find it easier for preparations to have the lamps at all shows rather than have them at some and not others, even though it costs $100-$200 for the electrical hookup. The other main reason for the lamps is the extra light helps to bring out the details in the materials we use that normally would be missed by customers when they QUICKLY pass by our booth (after all, at big shows like Gen Con, we only have a few seconds of each attendees time to impress them enough to want to stop to take a closer look at our dice and we think the lamps do help us achieve this result).

So, the lamps are not there only to increase the luster of them, though this is does occur. For example, our opaque dice have not been polished to anything close to a high luster because we think they look better with a slightly matte finish. So, the lamps don't help here.

We actually sell Lou's dice at shows where he does not exhibit as well as to the trade. We think they are a quality product and there is a market for his dice and, since I have always liked Lou, try to help him out by increasing his outlets of distribution. We don't know if this is common knowledge or not, but the producer of the video, Gamestation (or their owners), are in the process of purchasing Gamescience from Lou. Our guess is the promotional value gained from being on You Tube is why the video was made and put up there. We don't have any problem with this and think it is a good idea on their part, but we think they could have been a little more forthcoming in their motivation as to why the video was made. Perhaps we should do some informational videos about our dice, the history of some color developments, etc.

I hope this answers your questions and thanks for sending us the video link.
We found it interesting.

Regards,
Chessex

I agree that some of Lou's spiel seems targeted at older dice, like the infamously bad TSR dice of days gone. But for me the most interesting thing here is what Chessex doesn't say. There's no denial of Zocchi's claims about his competitors' inking process, which he suggests as the main place in the process where dice become lopsided. For me personally that was the most important part of the Colonel's patter.

I think it's important to note here that dice are simultaneously two different things in our hobby. On the one hand they are random number generators, intended to provide fair results to all players. On the other hand they are potent totems of gamer culture. The fact that we use weird poly dice is part of our geek heritage. I don't like diceless games or games that use spinners or cards as randomizers because that's not the way we do things. Similarly, Zocchi's technical issues are easily solved by using computerized randomization. A couple of times I tried using columns of electronically produced die-rolls hidden behing my screen, but it felt cold and lifeless to me.

So it seems to me that Zocchi is selling what I want. Gaming as I understand it involves rolling handfuls of weird dice, but it is equally important that those dice work as random number generators. As far as I can tell Colonel Lou doesn't make a d30, so I'm keeping my big purple thirty-sider from the Armory. Other than that, my plan is to rely on Gamescience for my future polyhedral needs.

Anyone got one of these?

In the 80's there was an issue of Dragon where a similar product was reviewed. It was called the Fair Shake Dice Device, but that was a clunky wooden think that was a bitch to transport. I know because I built my own as my project for 8th grade woodshop class. (Yes, I am that big of a dork.) This looks like it could disassemble to travel flat, which would explain why it's called the portable dice tower.

That Dragon issue also reviewed a couple of other dice oddities. Dragonbone was a handheld LED thingy that generated random numbers electronically. They were apparently built solidly, as I've heard of people who still use their Dragonbone two decades later. Then there was The D4 That Rolls, a d8 marked 1-4 twice. That's a great idea but I wouldn't use them today because, outside of casino d6s, 80's dice had much dodgier quality controls than models nowadays. I have seen some d12s marked with 1 to 4 pips on each side, but I've never found them priced cheap enough where I would feel justified in replacing my d4s with them. Over on Gamecraft someone highly recommended I get some of the new prism-shaped d4s from Crystal Caste. I just got done replacing my d4s, so I'd feel a little silly doing so again.