Transcript

 of  the  Interview  with  Jack  Ma(马

马 云 )    
 
China  Boom  Project,  Asia  Society  
2009  
 
Ma,  Jack  (Yun)  (马 云 )  
 
Lead  Founder,  Alibaba  Group  
 
Industry:  Business  

Jack  Ma(马云)  is  the  founder  of  Alibaba  Group  and  has  been  the  chairman  and  chief  
executive  officer  since  its  inception  in  1999.  Ma  is  a  pioneer  in  the  Chinese  internet  
industry  and  in  1995  founded  China  Pages,  widely  believed  to  be  China's  first  Internet-­‐
based  company.  From  1998  to  1999,  Ma  headed  an  information  technology  company  
established  by  the  China  International  Electronic  Commerce  Center  (CIECC),  a  department  
of  the  Ministry  of  Foreign  Trade  and  Economic  Cooperation  (MOFTEC).  Ma  currently  
serves  on  the  board  of  SOFTBANK  Corp,  a  leading  digital  information  company  that  is  
publicly  traded  on  the  Tokyo  Stock  Exchange.  As  a  respected  business  leader,  he  was  
chosen  by  the  World  Economic  Forum  as  a  "Young  Global  Leader"  in  2001,  and  selected  by  
China  Central  Television  (CCTV)  and  its  viewers  as  one  of  the  "Top  10  Business  Leaders  of  
the  Year"  in  2004.  He  was  also  named  one  of  the  "25  Most  Powerful  Businesspeople  in  
Asia"  by  Fortune  magazine  in  2005,  a  "Businessperson  of  the  Year"  by  BusinessWeek  
magazine  in  2007,  one  of  the  30  "World's  Best  CEOs"  by  Barron's  in  2008,  and  one  of  the  
“TIME  100:  The  World’s  Most  Influential  People”  by  TIME  magazine  in  2009.  Ma  is  a  
member  of  APEC  Business  Advisory  Council,  which  was  established  by  the  Asia-­‐Pacific  
Economic  Cooperation,  or  APEC,  in  1995  as  the  vehicle  for  formalizing  private  sector  
participation  in  APEC.  Ma  holds  a  bachelor’s  degree  in  English  from  Hangzhou  Teacher's  
Institute.  
 
http://www.alibaba.com/  
 
NPR  profile  of  Jack  Ma  here:  audio  
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4770462  
 
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Transcript    
 
Interviewee:  Jack  Ma  (马云)  
Interviewer:  Orville  Schell  
Date:  March  12,  2009  
Place:  New  York  (USA)  
 
Jack  Ma  video  1  
 
Introduction:  
00:00-­‐3:17  
 
3:17-­‐06:13  
More  intro:  Jeff  introduces  Jack  Ma  and  Orville  Schell  
 
06:13  
*Jack  Ma  takes  the  stage  
 
Good  morning  everyone  and  I'm  happy  to  see  so  many  early  birds....makes  a  joke...  
 
06:33  
This  is  the  16th  day  of  tour  for  my  management  team,  I  took  all  of  my  management  team  
from  Alibaba  from  china  into  the  States,  we've  visited  the  Silicon  Valley,  yahoo,  Google,  
apple,  and  we  visited  Microsoft,  came  to  NY,  we  also  visited  GE,  and  um,  we  came  here.  It's  
a  long  trip  an  ppl  ask  me  why  did  you  come  to  the  states?  
 
7:05  
And  first,  I  want  to  team  build  (?),  I  think  it's  a  great  time  for  team  building.  2nd,  I  want  to  
look  for  partner,  I  want  to  learn,  I  want  to  learn  the  companies...they're  my  idols,  what  
they're  thinking  in  the  world  today  and  what  kind  of  field.  3rd,  our  US  office...we  want  to  
invest  more  money  in  the  Stats.  
 
7:35  
And  then,  i  think  the  first  stop  was  in  Stanford,  where  envious  student  ask,  "Jack,  what  are  
you  going  to  learn  from  these  companies?"  I  said,  I  don't  know.  Because  I  am  going  to  tell  
you  in  15  days.    And  I  am  here  to  share  with  you  my  observation  
 
7:49  
What  I've  thought  about  and  what  I've  learned  in  15  days.  I  think  the  first  very  important  
thing  i  want  to  tell  you  that  I  am  100%  made  in  China.  I've  never  been  trained  outside  of  
China.  I  taught  myself  English  in  China,  13  years  ago,  I  um...*applause*  
 
 
 
8:10  
I  don't  know  for  whatever  reasons,  I  was  in  Hangzhou,  it's  a  beautiful  city,  it's  got  the  West  
Lakes,  and  it  was  the  first  city  that  opened  to  the  West,  a  lot  of  American  tourists  visited  the  
city,  and  I  showed  them  around  every  morning  for  9  years,  I  never  stopped.  Just  went  to  the  
West  Lake  and  showed  American  tourists,  foreign  tourists,  around  the  city.  
 
8:33  
They  taught  me  English  and  I'll  work  as  a  free  guide.  And  I'll  practice  my  English.  I  learn  
what  is  American  culture,  I  stopped...I'm  not  only  interested  in  the  American  language,  l  
English,  but  also  American  culture.  
 
8:48  
15  years  ago  I  came  to  Seattle,  first  trip  to  the  States,  and  first  time  in  my  life,  I  touched  
keyboard  and  computers,  and  first  time  in  my  life  I  connected  to  the  internet.  The  first  time  
I  decided  to  leave  as  a  teacher  and  start  a  company,  called  Chinapages.com.    
 
9:08  
And  that  was  the  first  internet  company  in  China,  and  at  that  time  I  called  myself  a  blind  
man  riding  on  the  back  of  blind  tigers.  *laugh*  without  knowing  anything  about  technology  
or  computer,  I  started  the  first  company.  And  after  4  years  of  terrible  experience,  or  failure  
(?),  10  years  ago,  I  came  back  again  with  my  CFO  (Name),  who’s'  here  today.    We  came  to  
the  Silicon  Valley,  with  the  dreams  that  we  have  a  dream  for  Alibaba,  we  want  to  help  SMEs  
in  China  and  the  world  to  do  business  online.  We  believe  internet  is  a    really  great  place  for  
business  and  we  think,  we  call  Alibaba  because  we  want  "open  sesame"  for  SMEs.  
 
09:53  
....Small  and  Medium  Sized  Companies.  We  came  here  to  looking  for  venture  capitalists,  
after  2  weeks,  we  were  rejected  by  all  the  venture  capitalists  because  they  think,  well  it  
wont'  work  because  how  can  you  do  e-­‐commerce  in  China?  How  can  you  do  internet  in  
China?  What  are  you  talking  about  b2b  and  b2c?  Too  early  for  China.  
 
10:11  
We  were  not  disappointed.  We  were  inspired  by  the  Silicon  Valley  spirit,  the  American  
dreams...I  remember  that  every  evening  when  I  walk  on  the  street,  I  see  the  traffic  in  the  
Silicon  Valley,  the  road  to  San  Francisco,  it's  lined  with  traffic.  And  every  evening  when  I  go  
to  Silicon  Valley  it's  lined  with  lights,  people  working  day  and  night.    And  every  Saturday  
when  I  go  I  couldn’t'  even  find  a  parking  spot,  because  people  working  hard  on  the  
weekends.  
 
10:41  
This  inspired  me,  and  inspired  us.  I  said,  "Yes,  this  is  exactly  what  we  are  looking  for.  I  want  
these  things  happening  in  our  part  of  the  world.  In  China,  in  India,  in  the  other  side."  So,  I  
came  home  with  American  dream  buried  in  my  mind.    Then  10  years  passed.  And  the  past  
10  years  has  been  tough  for  us.  Today,  we  grew  from  18  founders  in  my  apt  to  12,000  
people.  And  we're  going  to  hire  500  new  employees  this  year.  
 
11:14  
We  have  a  big  vision  for  tomorrow  and  day  after  tomorrow.  We  grow  from  one  member  to  
over  13  million  SMEs  using  our  service  in  China.  8  million  SMEs    using  our  service  outside  
China.  We  grow  from  b2b,  to  b2c,  to  c2c  online  payment.  People  complained  that  China  
cannot  do  Internet,  because  of  this  or  because  of  that.  People  complained  that  China  cannot  
do  ecommerce  because  they’re  not  ????    enough  .  
 
11:40  
They  say  that  China  don't  have  payment,  that's  minimum  payment.  Ppl  say  that  China  
doesn’t  have  logistic,  that's  ???  logistic.    We  made  it  happen.  And  10  years  later,  today,  we  
came.    We're  looking  for  American  dreams  again.  We're  looking  for  the  great  idol  
companies  that  we  want  to  learn  from,  that  we  want  to  benefit  from.  What  they  want  to  do  
in  the  next  10  years,  and  after  the  trip,  I  was  very  surprised  to  see,  most  of  the  companies  
we've  visited,  they're  very  depressed  mood.  
 
12:15  
People  talking  about...people  talking  about  numbers,  people  talking  about  IPO  ,  people  
talking  about  stock  shares.  People  do  not  talk  about  their  dreams,  ppl  do  not  talk  about  
their  visions.  Even  some  of  the  companies  I  visited,  the  engineers  are  telling  you  about  the  
wonderful  product,  not  about  how  this  wonderful  product  is  going  to  change  the  world,  
change  the  ppl.  They're  talking  about  how  this  product  can  make  money.  
 
12:39  
I  was  a  little  bit  disappointed.  And  this  reminds  me  why  this  economic  crisis  came,  why  this  
economic  crisis  came.  And...that  the  very  interesting  thing  I  see,  the  great  inspiration  in  
some  of  the  companies,  the  American  dreams  are  still  there  and  people  still  fighting  for  it.    
 
13:00  
For  example  a  company  I  visited,  Starbucks.  They  do  have  the  dreams,  they  do  have...they  
know  what  they're  doing,  they  know  the  Starbucks  spirit,  the  culture,  t he  ????  .  The  
talk...when  I  see  them  talk  about  their  product,  their  ????,  you  see  their  shining  eyes.      They  
know  their..they  know  what  the  globalization  mean.  They  know  what  they  can  help  the  
people.  One  of  the  (slogans?)  of  the  Starbucks  is  "the  only  easy  day  was  yesterday."  That's  
today’s  situation.  
 
13:38  
So,  I  think  the  world  today  everywhere  is  the  same.  Nobody  is  happy.  But  you  are  the  only  
people  that  can  make  use  yourself  happy.  Early  this  year,  I  was  having  dinner  in  a  
restaurant,  the  owner  of  the  restaurant,  she  came  to  me,  she  knows  me  because  she's  our  
member.  She  said,  "Jack,  what  do  you  think  about  the  economy,  it's  terrible.  how  long  do  
you  think  the  situation  will  last?"    
 
14:08  
I  said,  "well,  this  year."  "Wow,  this  year?  the  economy  is  going  to  recover?"  I  said,  "no,  this  
year  we're  going  to  get  used  to  it."    *laughs*  We  have  to  get  used  to  it.  The  wonderful  
yesterday  is  gone.  And  the  wonderful  year,  year  2007,  may  not  come  back.    Forget  about  
that.  Let's  look  at  tomorrow.  I  think  this  for  a  lot  of  people  are  difficult  (?).  You  are  difficult,  
but  people  are  much  more  difficult  than  you  are  in  this  part  of  the  world.  
 
14:40  
So  I  believe,  I  think  this  is  a  great  opportunity  for  everybody.  And  I  sincerely  think  this  
financial  crisis,  this  economic  crisis;  it's  not  a  crisis  today.  It  was  a  crisis  of  last  year,  
October,  last  year,  before  October,  august,  September,  it  was  a  crisis.    I  believe  we  should  
worry  more  at  that  time.  (????)    At  that  time,  I  think  I  remember  year  2007,  I  walk  on  the  
street,  every  panel  every  meeting  I  went,  people  talking  about  what?  People  talking  about    
IPO,  people  talking  about  stock  prices,  ppl  talking  about,  a  bout  how  much  money  you  
make.  Ppl  never  talk  about  the  value  created  for  the  customers.  
 
15:27  
And  every  panel,  every  major  conference  I  went,  and  the  bankers  will  tell  you,  go  IPO,  you  
can  raise  more  money.  But  they  don’t'  tell  you  what  you  raise  money  for.    And  I  know  
something  wrong  with  it,  we're  stuck  in  2007.  Especially  one  thing  that  shocked  me,  
because  we  are  the  company  going  through  internet  bubble  bursting  period,  it  was  a  
terrible  experience.  I  think  last  year,  early  last  year,  in  2008,  one  of  the  events  I  went,  there  
was  some  ppl  say,  "wow,  the  evolution...there  was  a  Chinese  real  estate  company  that  went  
pubic  in  HK,  and  the  analyst...    the    of  this  company  owns  that  much  land,  plus  each  land,  
plus  that  much  market,  plus  PE,  that's  the  market  capital  of  this  company.  And  it  remind  
me,  year  2001,  Yahoo,  how  much  page  did  Yahoo  have,  plus  each  set,  plus  PE,  makes  the  
market  capital  of  the  Internet.  
 
16:25  
That  was  the  bubble  bursting.    And  I  think,  wow,  something's  happening.  So  we  told  
ourselves,  be  careful,  something  wrong  is  coming.    So  in  July,  I  wrote  a  letter  to  my  whole  
staff,  in  paraphrase  (?),  I  said,  the  ???  is  coming,  let's  get  ready  for  it.    It  was  just  one  month  
before  the  Olympics.  Well,  we  prepared.  Today  a  lot  of  ppl  still  complain,  "wow  this  thing  
caused  by  banks,  this  thing  caused  by  that."  *shakes  head*  It's  too  late  to  complain.    You  
could  complain  last  year,  but  if  you  didn't  complain  last  year,  let's  prepare  now.  
 
17:03  
let's  take  action  now.  Cuz  how  could  people  complain,  the  business  ppl  complain,  the  
smartest  ppl  on  Wall  St.  they  did  not  foretell  the  finial  crisis.  If  you're  business  ppl  you  did  
know  something  wrong  was  happening.  
 
17:18  
I,  I  bet  if  you  paid  attn  to  the  customers,  you  definitely  feel  something  wrong  w/  your  
partner,  something  wrong  with  your  customer,  something  wrong  you  banks.  You  have  to  
feel  that  something  wrong  w/  the  environment.      *pause*  
 
17:33  
And  I  think,  i  don't  think  this  is  a  crisis  today.  I  think  it's...it's  the  growing  pain  of  the  
modern  (?)  economy,  It's  the  growing  pain  of  globalization.    10  years  later,  I  strongly  
believe,  there  will  be  more  successful  ppl  than  today.  10  years  later,    I  believe  there  will  be  
more  successful  companies  than  today.  
 
17:56  
You  will  be  the  next  Google,  the  next  Ebay,  you  will  be  the  next  face  if  you  take  action  today.  
If  I  did  not  take  action  10  years  ago  for  the  Alibaba  dream.  I  will  never  be  able  to  stand  here  
to  talk.  and  I  think  one  of  the  beliefs  that  I  have,  if  Jack  Ma  can  be  successful,  then  80%  of  
the  ppl  can  be  successful  as  well.  i  don’t'  have  any  financial  background.  I  don’t'  have  a  rich  
father,  and  I  don’t'  have  any  relationship  with  any  gov't  officials.  
 
18:32  
And  I  failed  3  time  for  entering  universities.  Nobody  said  Jack,  you’re  smart,  you're  clever,  
you're  a  genius.  Only  2007,  Nov.  6,  the  day  when  I  went  IPO.  Some  people  said,  Jack,  you're  
smart.  *laughs.  
 
18:51  
and  I  think  something  wrong  because  our  stock  go  from  13.3  dollars,  HK  dollars,  to  40  
dollars  in  2  weeks,  without  doing  anything  right.  And  our  stock  go  form  40  dollars  to  3  
dollars  without  doing  anything  wrong.  
 
19:09  
*laughs*  not  because  we're  wrong,  something  wrong  with  the  shareholder.  Today,  and  I  
think  what  Alibaba  believe,  the  reason  we  survive  is  we  always  believed  Customer  number  
1,  employee  number  2,  shareholders  number  3.  
 
19:24  
And  I  again  and  again  want  to  say,  in  the  company,    it's  the  customers  that  pay  you.  it's  the  
customers  that  make  you  different.  It's  the  employees  that  stay  with  you.  I  think,  a  lot  of  
shareholders  say,  "jack  get  me  the  shares.  we've  been  long  time  shareholders."  when  
disaster  came,  they're  all  gone.  
 
19;42  
My  colleagues  stay  with  me  and  I  appreciate  that.  We  still  have  the  dream  in  their  heart,  we  
want  to  change,  we  want  to  change  the  future.  
 
19:44  
So,  i  think  the  other  thing  I  want  to  share  with  you  is  that.  10  yrs  ago,  there  was  a  movie,  I  
watched  the  American  movie,  called  Forest  Gump.  *laughs*  because  of  that  movie,  I  started  
to  think  about  how  the  SMEs  can  succeed.  Because  in  Forest  Gump,  it  was  shrimp.    So  we,  as  
a  Small  and  medium  sized  company,  said,  "let's  catch  the  shrimp."  
 
20:17  
and  not  catch  the  whales.  Because  forest  gump  is  not  a  smart  guy,  luckily,  most  of  the  smart  
guys  went  to  the  banks.  *laughs*  but  he's  focused,  and  he's  not  talented.  But  he's  very  very  
hard  working  And  he's  very  simple.  And  he's  very  optimistic.  The  thing  that  I  brought  to  tell  
my  wife,  my  friends,  forest  gump  said,  "life  is  like  a  box  of  chocolate,  you  never  know  what  
you’re  gonna  get."  
 
2051  
Today  is  the  same  thing.  I  think  I  feel  happy  because  of  the  financial  crisis.  Because  it  shows  
that  business  should  be  back  to  basics,  back  to  values,  back  to  think  we're  not  made  of  
money  today,  we're  made  of  spirit,  we're  made  of  dreams,  we're  made  of  the  first  day  ???,  
we're  made  of  the  values  that  we  committed,    we  promised.  So  I  think...I  tell  myself,  we  are  
lucky,  today  Alibaba  grew,  I'm  only  40  some  years  old,  I'm  still  pretty  young.  And  I  think  in  
my  life  I  have  such  a  privilege,  such  a  chance  to  take  this  challenge.  I  always  admire  the  
American  Idol  ??????  (cannot  understand  what  he  says)  
 
21:40  
?????  ...which  we  do  not  have  a  chance  to  be  their  heroes.  But  today,  everybody  can  be  the  
heroes.  Everybody  have  a  chance  to  be  (???person  on  American  Idol).  Everybody  who  have  
dreams,  take  action  and  you  will  be  there.  So  I  think  i  am  lucky,  if  I  am  60  years  old,  I'm  too  
old  to  have  the  opportunity  to  take  the  challenge.  now  I  am  40  and  I  have  the  chance.  My  
team,  our  average  age  of  26  years,  the  average  age  of  the  Alibaba  group,  these  are  the  ppl,  
40  years  later,    tell  their  children,  and  their  children's    children,  say  we  overcome  the  most  
terrible  period  of  the  world  (?),  this  is  the  owner,  and  this  is  the  pride,  that  we  got  through    
together.  
 
22:20  
And  i  think,    it's  the  chance  that  we  will  see  a  new  world  that's  coming.  My  American  friend,  
i  think  America  gave  me  the  American  dreams,  and  (buried??)  it  in  China.    and  I'm  bringing  
a  lot  of  ideas  and  dreams  to  the  thousands  and  millions  of  SMEs...the  Asian  entrepreneurs.  
 
22:43  
Doing  internet  business  in  China  is  not  easy.  And  doing  internet  is  not  easy.  You  compete.  
Compete  not  because  you  are  smart,  compete  because  you  are  hardworking.  Get  up  early.  
Compete  b/c  we  have  the  dreams,  compete  because  we  think  the  internet  can  change  the  
world,  improve  China.  there  is  more  than  1000  chance  that  you  fail,  at  least  1000  chance,    I  
don’t    know  why  we  survived.  But  we  never  gave  up  one  thing  that  the  hope,  the  hope  to  
survive.  
 
23:17  
There's  a  huge  storm...there's  a  huge  storm  outside,  there  must  be  some  where  they  can  
hide  yourself.  If  you  hide  yourself  well,  you  get  through  it.  If  you're  not  prepared,  you  die.  
And  I  tell  myself  again  and  again  i  share  this  value  with  the  most  ppl  in  the  company.  
 
23:35  
Today  is  difficult,  tomorrow  will  be  much  more  difficult,  but  the  day  after  tomorrow  is  
beautiful.  But  most  ppl  die  tomorrow  evening.  *laugh*  If  you  don’t  work  hard  today,  you'll  
never  see  the  sunshine.  So  I  think  after  my  trip,  I  go  back  home  and  tell  ppl,  let's  catch  the  
chance,  let's  do  something  different.  So  now,  ppl  here,  if  you're  laid  off,  think  about  
something  different.  Don’t  cry  for  tomorrow,  let's  expect...don’t  cry  for  yesterday,  let's  
expect  for  tomorrow.  Tomorrow  is  always  good.  But  it's  tough.  But  we  should  send  
something  for    our  young  ppl,  if  you're  young,  do  something  for  yourself.  Don’t  wait.  It's  not  
a  disaster,  it's  not  a  crisis  that  government  can  do.  This  is  something  that...  
 
24:25  
A  lot  of  ppl  waiting  for  gov't,  waiting  for  this  incentive  plan.  Wonderful  time  have  terrible  
companies.  Terrible  time  have  wonderful  companies.  Do  something  for  yourself,  the  only  
way  is  to  take  action.  When  you  think  about  it,  nobody  is  going  to  help  you,  only  you  help  
yourself.  That's  the  thing  I  learned  from  Idol.  Let's  do  it.  So,  only  when  we  take  action,  only  
when  we  care  ourselves,  only  when  you  do  something  different,  this  time  of  the  year,  this  
time  of  the  world.  I  think  you'll  see  the  sunshine  of  ...tomorrow.  
 
clip  ends  
 
 
____________  
Clip  2  
 
OS:  ...extraordinary  growth,  how  did  this  happen?  When  you  analyze  China's  dynamic  
...what  do  you  think  are  the  reasons?  
 
:13:  
Ma:  I  think...without  the  open  up  policy,  we  will  not  be  here.  I  think  China  changed  a  lot  
because  of  the  Open  up  policy  because  government  efforts  and  the  very  important  thing  is  
entrepreneurial  spirit.    Hundreds  and  thousands  of  ppl  like  me,  really  thinking  about  how  
to  change,  how  to  build  up  the...build  up  something.  To  change  ourselves,  change  the  
country.  I  don’t  think.  I  think  the  world  has  changed  a  lot  in  the  past  30  years.  
 
 
:44  
 
Uh...Not  like  the  most  Americans  these  days  I  visited,  they  always  think  big,  think  about  the  
world.  I  do  small.  The  things  most  ppl  worry  about,  i  never  worry.  Because  there  are  plenty  
of  ppl  who  worry  about  it,  I  cannot  change  it.  
 
1:04  
The  thing  that  ppl  do  not  worry  about???  And  I  think  it's  the  entrepreneurial  ship,  be  
different,  improving,  and  china,  the  whole  country  started  to  say  let's  open  door,    let's  
reform,  let's  improve.  That  made  the  big  change.  
 
1:23  
OS:  Do  you  remember  when  you  were  uh  a  boy,  growing  up,  what  were  your  aspirations,  
and  how  did  these  changes  Deng  Xiao  Ping  brought  out  affect  the  changes  ,  how  did  that  
affect  you?  when  did  you  get  the  idea  that  you  could  write  yourself  somewhat  wiser  as  a  
business  person?  
 
1:41  
Yea,  I  remember.  So  I  was  born  in  1964  and  um,  I  remember  the  Chairman  Mao,  Deng  
Xiaoping  down,  Chairman  Mao  died,  Gang  of  Four,  and  then  um,  and  then  um...you  know,  
failed  a  lot  of  schools....and  then,  I  think  that  China  um...in  1992  when  Deng  Xiaoping  spoke  
in  Shenzhen.  Move  fast,  develop  the  nation,  and  I  was  in  the  university  that  day,  I  was  
teaching  at  the  university,  because  I  promised  to  my  president  that  I  was,  my  school  
president  said,  I  will  stay  there  and  teach  for  5  yrs.  A  lot  of  ppl  just,  when  they  signed  on  the  
job,  they  change  the  job  immediately.  
 
2:23  
But  I  was  assigned  to  teach  at  the  university,  and  I  promised  my  president,  5  years,  I'm  not  
gonna  change  my  job.  1992,  I  was  just...3  year,  omg,  if  I  did  not  promise,  I  could  probably  
get  another  job.  My  pay  at  that  time  was  10  dollars  a  month,  but  ppl  offered  me  to,  eh  120  
dollars  a  month.  And  I  said  no,  a  promise  is  a  promise.  But  that  
 
2:51  
the  period  when  I  said,  when  I  finish  my  5  year  promise,  I'm  going  to  do  some  real  business.    
So  change  to  me  is  that,  ppl  do  not  feel  ashamed  to  be  business  people.  People  think  
business  is  good.  and  ppl  think  you  can  be  rich,  you  can  help  other  ppl  be  rich.  At  the  
beginning  of  my  business  career,  I  just  wanted  to  change  myself.  I  think  Everything  I  taught  
my  student  on  the  face  I  learned  from  books.  And  I  want  to  be  a  business  ppl  for  10  years  
and  go  back  to  teach,  share  the  real  experience  with  young  ppl,  that  was  my  thinking.  
 
3:30  
OS:  But  that  is  a  bit  strange  isn't  it,  such  uh...vibrant  market  revolution  came  out  of  a  social  
revolution,  you  know,  state-­‐controlled,  uh  very  anti-­‐capitalist.  How  do  you  explain  that  
incredible  transformation  and  the  psyche...eh  
 
*Ma  interrupts*  
 
3:53  
Ma:  the  world  is  strange.  I  never  expected  that  America  become  so  socialist.  *audience  
laughs*  I  never  expect  that  so  many  ppl  look  at  the...you  know,  watch  tv  and  look  at  the  
government,  like  20  years  ago  China.  *audience  laugh*  People  are  changing,  I  think  the  
magic  of  the  world  is  that...you  know...I  don’t  know,  China,  it  is  changing,  for  various  
reasons.  Government  reason,  ppl  reason,  culture.  I  think  that,  people  like  you  in  the  State,  
they  ???  China,  the  Internet.    And  today,  well  I  don’t    know  but,  the  world  is  changing.  
 
4:40  
OS:  It  still  doesn’t  explain  though,  where  did  this  incredible  entrepreneurial  instinct  come  
from  in  the  society  that  spent  30  years  opposing  capitalist  roaders.  
 
4:52  
Ma:  I  think  eh...it's  been  the  open  up  policy.  Without  the  open  up  policy,  we  will  never  see  
this  thirst  ???....    like  Forest  Gump,  We  never  know  the  ford,  we  never  know  the  great  
business.  Without  the  open  up  policy  we'll  never  see  so  many  Panasonics,  Mitsubishi  (?)  
stuff,  without  the  open  up  policy,  we  never  have  a  chance  to  go...I  think  without...30  years  
ago  I  taught  myself  English  in  West  lake...you  know,  by  receiving  so  many  foreign  tourists,  I  
would  never  be  able  to  know  there  was  another  world  outside.  
 
05:27  
And  I  think  this  change...and  you  learning,  people  learn,  I  see  a  of  musicians,  a  lot  of  artists,  
they  learn  from  outside.  But  I  think  next  few  years,  I  suggest  that  American  ppl  pay  more  
attention  to  China  growth,  china  model,  ???  to  learn.  
 
Hm.  mentions  China  model  
 
5:51  
OS:  Let's  talk  about  that.  with  the  crisis,  what  should  china  start  studying  about  Chinese  
model  as  you  describe  it?  
 
06:05  
Ma:  We  move  fast.  Because  I  think  we  see  today  China,  China  has  a  lot  of  problems.  
Everywhere  ppl  talking  about  problems.  Ah,  esp  when  I  leave...eh,  in  the  States,  in  the  UK,  
ppl  ask  me,  how  can  you  do  Internet  in  China?  China  puts  censorship  on  internet.  
 
06:25  
It's  impossible.  Ppl  just  see  1%  of  the  bad  things,  they  do  not  see  99%  of  the  good  things.  If  
it  is  against  your  principle,  you  say,  well  it's  no  good.  Let's  see  things  in  a  different  way.  I  
was  educated  in  China,  they  told  me  that  capitalism  is  no  good.  But  when  i  came  here  (???),  
and  it's  different,  and  we  have  to  start  to  learn.  But  now  I  think  it's  time  for  the  West  to  look  
at  China.  China's  been  criticized  for  50  years,  China  cannot  grow,  cannot  sustain,  this  and  
that,  but  it  keeps  on  growing.  
 
7:03  
How  to  explain  that?  China  changed.  We  transformed.  There  was  one  ????  but  there  are  a  
lot  of  ppl  like  us,  we  have  the  dreams,  we  think  we  should..we  can  not  only  improve  
ourselves,  we  can  improve  the  world.  we  are  also  learning  to  be  globalized.  And  internet,  
esp  the  same  thing..you  know,  Internet  is  speedy  at  this  thing?  I  think  b/c  of  Internet,  
everything  that's  happening  today,  we  get  that.  so  information  go  into  China,  information  
leave  China.  
 
7:43  
I  think...I'm  very  shocked  when  I  visit  the  West,  and  people  ask  me  that  question  and  I  say,  
"well,  well  we  Chinese  know  more  about  West,  much  more  than  West  know  about  China."  I  
think  we  can  name,  at  least,  today,  Chinese  people  can  tell  about  Obama  policies,  what  they  
look  like,  we  can  tell  how  many  States,  the  names,  I  think  most  Westerns  only  know  about  
Shanghai,  Beijing,  they  do  not  know  even  Hangzhou.  *audience  laughs*  
 
08:18  
Let's  look  outside,  Chinese  people  in  the  past  100s  of  years,  they  looked  inside.  We  are  
oriental.  We  looked  inside  more  than  outside.  Now  we  start  to  look  outside.  I  think  
American  ppl,  and  western  ppl,    Look  both  inside  and  outside.  Look  at  things  different,  and  
appreciate  it,  Enjoy  it.  See  the  difference  inside.  So  I  think  what  the  American  public,  the  
Western  public  think  is...look  at  China  in  a  Chinese  way.  Ah,  this  guy  I've  been  cruising  for  
50  years  is  doing  pretty  well,  what'  wrong?  
 
08:50  
Just  like  ppl  ask  me,  Jack,  how  can  you  do  it?  how  do  you  grow  from  Alibaba  to  Taobao  to  
Alibaba  Group  that  fast?  I  said,  I  dot'  know.  I  don’t  know  why  we  grow.  The  professor  know  
how  to  grow.  Because  the  ppl  can  make  it  cannot  tell  why.  The  ppl  who  can  tell  why,  never  
know  how  to  make  it  grow.  *audience  laugh*  So  maybe  China  cannot  know  how  to  grow.  I  
don’t  know,  because  I  think  different  ppl  have  a  different  view.  
 
9:19  
But  ppl  outside  should  study  it.  I  see  some  ppl  in  my  class  that  are  better  than  I  am.  I  don’t  
listen  to  him,  I  want  to  watch  carefully  what  he  does.  what  is  he  trying  to  do?  
 
09:35  
OS:  well,  for  all  its'  uh  problems,  China  has  been  quite  an  economic  success  story.  How  in  
your  view  is  China  doing  in  surviving  the  current  economic  crisis  that's  seizing  the  world?  
 
9:46  
Ma:  I  think  they're  doing  the  right  strategy.  For  example,  quick  action.  no  matter  if  you  here  
believe  or  not.    I  strongly  believe  in  China  govt’s  execution  power.    They  want  to  make  it  
happen,  make  it  happen.  
 
10:02  
This  is  good  about  the  power...  government,  the  Chinese  gov't,  they  can  make  thing  happen.  
The  2nd  and  the  huge  countryside...the  domestic...I  think  the  domestic    ????  will  be  in  China  
for  about  10  years,  10-­‐15  years.  We  should  not  rely  on  export,  we  should  rely  on  domestic  
demand.  Others,  you  know,  wonderful  days  nobody  wants  to  make  a  change.  Today  they  
have  to  make  change.  And  you  see  china's  gov't  spending  money  on  the  countryside,  invest  
a  lot  in  ???,  b/c  the  China  countryside  is  huge  market  for  domestic  consumptions.  And  the  
thing  ppl  worry  about  ,  omg,  this      20,  30  million  ppl  lost  job,  going  back  to  countryside.  
 
10:50  
I  think  if  we  do  it  properly,  this  is  going  to  improve,  and  speed  up  countryside  reform.  
These  20,  30  million  ppl  have  been  working  in  the  cities,  they're  like  educated.  I  think  40  
years  ago,  Chairman  Mao  asked  young  ppl  to  go  to  countryside,  they  are  called  ????.  
 
11:10  
At  that  time,  they  forced  ppl  to  go.  Now  these  ppl  go  back.  So  if  we  populate  the  countryside  
with  infrastructure,  give  more  opportunities  for  them,  to  speed  up  the  civilization.  The  
countryside,  it  is  good.  The  other  things  is  that,  in  the  cities....  because  American  
place...American  ppl  think  that  Chinese  people  never  spend  money,  they  save  money.    Learn  
from  that.  
 
*audience  laugh  
 
11:40  
While  you  have  money,  save  the  money.  
 
11:47  
OS:  So  to  save  money  now  is  exactly  what  the  economy  doesn’t'  want.  
 
11:49  
Ma:  No...I  think  the  ppl  ...start  to  spend  money,  I  believe  the  ppl  in  the  cities  of  China  will  
start  to  spend  money.  And  I'm  encouraging  our  team,  when  i  tell  my  young  ppl....ppl,  go  
spend  money,  they  say  life  is  wonderful,  let's  go  spend  it.  
 
*audience  laughs*  
 
12:08  
So,  I  think  the  cities...because  they  save  money  during  the  wonderful  time,  now  they  will  go  
spend  money.  Of  course,  the  university  students,  they  graduate  from  school,  and  they  
cannot  find  jobs.....maybe  have  problems.  
 
12:26  
The  gov't  pay  attn  to  them,  and  I  don’t  think  it’s  the  gov't  that  should  pay  attn  to  them,  it  
should  be  the  business  ppl,  the  entrepreneurs,  the  SMEs,  the  private  sectors,  lets'  take  
action.  create  jobs  for  them.  i  remember,  a  lot  of  ppl  when  I  was  in  graduate  university,  a  lot  
of  ppl  didn't  have  jobs,  it's  terrible.  But  it's  not  gov'ts  work,  only  that  job...don’t  wait  for  
them,  let's  do  from  private  sectors.  that's  what  we  call  social  responsibilities.  
 
12:56  
 everywhere  i  go,  talk  about  social  responsibilities.  It  is  time  to...take  action,  and  i  think  
we're  learning  that.    ....social  responsibility  from  the  West.  and  we're  doing  that.  
 
 
13:13  
OS:  I  want  to  talk  a  little  bit  about  your  eh,  your  senses  in  China...what  are  the  social  
responsibilities  of  a  company,  of  a  CEO  in  ???/  industry?  
 
13:23  
Ma:  I  think  social  responsibility,  it  is  not  eh...it's  not  a  slogan.  Every  business  should  bury  
the  social  responsibility  into  the  business  model.  
 
13:39  
we  should  not  only  care  for  yourself,  you  care  for  the...customer,  the  environment.  I  think  
social  responsibility  is  a  general  concept  f  all  those  things  in  the  world.  After  being...10  
years  of  social  responsibility.  I  think  we  all  get  the  same  idea,  what  does  social  
responsibility  mean?  But  the  very  important,  is  take  action,  and  the  very  important  thing  is  
put  that  thing  in  reality,  put  that  thing  in  action.    And  it's  always  easy  to  say  that  and  ....but  
tough  time,  I  think  today  the  social  responsibility  for  any  business...care  employee,  create  
more  jobs,  and  do  something.  This  is  called  social  responsibility.  We  talk  about  
...environmental  protection,  every  important  last  year,  and  the  year  before  last,  this  and  
that.  
 
14:29  
now  it  is  time.  i  think,  I  think...esp  in  this  crisis  time,  we  have  plenty  plenty  of  things  to  do  
to  realize  the  goal  of  social  responsibility.    
 
14:44  
OS:  right,  you're  talking  to  your  employees  over  the  Internet  right  now,  what  do  you  think  
their  responsibilities  as  employees  of  Alibaba  and  responsibility...?  
 
14:58  
Alibaba,  from  the  first  day,  while  we  focused  on  small  medium  sized  companies.  and  b/c  i  
think  SMEs....    more  than  70%  of  the  jobs  in  China,  the  private  sectors.  If  we  help  one  SME,  
this  SME  will  help  30,  40  ppl.  I  bet  today,  if  Alibaba  bankrupt,  over  80,000  SMEs  in  China  
will  bankrupt.  If  each  SME  hires  10  ppl,  8  million  ppl  will  lose  their  jobs.  
 
15:35  
It  is  not  the  job  for  fun.  Alibaba  is  not  a  job  for  fun,  Alibaba  is  the  job  to  make  more  ppl  
successful.    ...this  is  the  basic,  thing  why  you  create  company  for.  I  think  I  am  proud  to  say  
that  Alibaba  ppl  share  the  same  vision.  So  we've  been  here  for  10  years,  this  year,  this  is  our  
10  year  anniversary,  so  I  am  going  to  tell,  share  w/  the  ppl  to  ...16,000,  and  million  and  
millions  of  SMEs  and  consumers  in  China  the  visions  for  the  next  10  years.  
 
16:16  
What  we're  gonna  do  in  the  next  10  years.  In  the  past  10,  we  just  proved  that  Internet  can  
help  China,  e-­‐commerce  will  exist  in  China.  
 
16:24  
Next  10  years  ,let's  help  more  ppl.  For  example,  I  canceled  the  ???,  which  our  largest  C2C  
size...we  have  100  million  users  on......  and  we  could  charge  them  money,  but  we  decide  
forget  about  revenue,  forget  about  profit...we  created  570,000  jobs  last  year.  
 
16:47  
Next  2-­‐3  years,  president  XXX,  he  knows  we  only  give  you  one  KPI,  one  goal,  create  another  
one  million  jobs  for  China.  That's  it.  
 
17:01  
that's  called  social  responsibility.    Because  there  are  ???/  ways  to  make  money,  and  we  
would  like  you  to  prepare  early.    Today,  I  think  I  can  now  compare  w/  Bill  Gates  who  makes  
more  money.  *laughs*  Nobody,  very  few  ppl  can.  I  can  compare  with  him  who  can  
contribute  more  to  the  world,  who  can  make  more  ppl  rich,  who  can  give  more  ppl....  
 
I  think  ????  him.  
  
17:30  
OS:  ???  How  many  ppl  on  each  site  now?  
 
17:43  
Ma:  Well,  we  top  um...we  have  100  million  users,  registered  users,  and  1.5  million  power  
???,  and  most  of  the  power  setters  are  disabled  ppl,  jobless  ppl,  and  also  today,  more  and  
more  university  students  join,  they  sell  things...just  like  ebay,  but  we're  much  bigger  than  
ebay  in  China.  
 
18:00  
OS:  You  mentioned  that  over  year  ago,  you  did  have  a  sense  that  we  were  heading  into  a  
darker  time,  what  was  about  what  you  saw  in  the  economic  system  that  make  you  have  
that  fear?  
 
18:19  
Ma:  I  first,  I  think,  year  20...like  most  company,  most  entrepreneurs,  I  was  worried  all  the  
time.  I  was  worried  all  the  time.  When  good  things  happen,  i  know  something  bad  is  
coming.  *laughs*  When  bad  things  coming,  I  know  good  things  are  coming.  This  is...for  14  
years,  entrepreneur  doing  business  in  China,  I  get  this  experience.  When  I  feel...every  time  I  
think  of  success,  I  can  relax,  omg  the  problem  came.  So  ...I  just  can't  believe  the  world,  
everybody  go  wowo  go  buy  shares.  
 
18:58  
My  customers,  SMEs,  a  lot  of  ppl  tell  me  about  how  much  money  they  make  in  year  2006  
and  7,  not  make  money  from  customers,  they  make  money  from  stock  market....I  got  that  
money!  Everything  they  don’t'  talk  about  customers,    they  don’t  about  service,  they  talk  
about  investment,  They  talk  about  stock  market,  and  you  know  something  is  wrong.  And  
the  second  point  is  because  we  have  30  million  SMEs  using  our  service....bc/  we  have  18  
million  ??  using  our  service,  They  don't  talk  about  import  export,  trading...  and  you  know  
something  is  wrong.  and  you  know  something's  wrong.  People  only  talk  about  money.  
 
19:47  
You  know  ppl  lose  value.  When  ppl  talk  about  money,  *gestures  to  eyes*  this  eye  is  RMB,  
this  eye  is  US  dollar.  They  talk  with  Hong  Kong  dollars.  They're  not   entrepreneurs,  they’re  
not  business  ppl.  You  know  the  world  has  changed.  You  know,  if  this  disaster  doesn’t  come  
last  year,  it'll  come  next  year.    So...especially,  in  China,  ppl  have  High  expectations  of  
Olympics.  
 
20:21  
My  god,  everybody  focus  on  one  thing.  Be  careful,  something  that  they're  not  paying  
attention  to  is  coming.  I  was  so  worried,  too  worried  in  July.  So  July,  I  wrote  that  email.  And  
that  email  leaked  out,  I  purposely  let  it  leak  out.  I  wanted  to  tell  you,  I  want  the  SMEs,  
watch,  the  ??  day  is  coming.  I  don’t  know  when  it  will  come,  but  I  know  it  will  be  very  
serious,  I  think  the  whole  world  will  be  united  to  solve  this  problem.  
 
20:51  
When  you  see  ppl  change,  the  bad  things  are  coming.  
 
20:58  
OS:  Let's  talk  a  little  bit  about,  I  mean,  clearly,  you're  a  major  player  in  the  world  today  in  
US  and  China?  And  what  are  your  thoughts  on  how  we  can  to  solve  the  economic  crisis?  and  
i  should  also  say  like  the    climate  change,    one  country  cannot  solve  the  situation,  how  do  
you  view  the  future  of  Sino-­‐US  relations  in  the  world  of  deep  crisis?  
 
21:23  
Ma:  i  think  the  world  has  high  expectations  of  USA,  and  the  world  has  high  expectations  of  
China.  These  two  countries  must  be  united,  understand  each  other,  share  information,  be  
more  transparent.  They  have  to  trust  each  other.  And  I  think  in  this  world  today,  we  should  
be  anti-­‐protectionism.  I  was  shocked  when  I  go  around  the  world  and  see  ppl  say  let's  do  
something  let's  do  something,  they  do  not  think  trade  is  about  fairness.  Solve  the  problem,  
work  together.  So  I  think  the  USA,  they  have  much  more  potential.  I  have  strong  confidence  
in  the  USA,  after  this  trip,  I  see  ppl,  they  are  totally  depressed,  but  they'll  come  back.  
 
22:15  
And  you  see  the  coming  back  thing  is  coming.  And  I  think  when  I  see  China,  China  may  
suffer  more  in  some  ways.  Financially  US  suffers  more.  But  the  real  business  base,  the  mfg  
base,  China  suffers  even  worse.  
 
22:36  
Millions  of  ppl  lose  job,  they  go  back  to  the  countryside.  i  do  not  see  them  crying.  Ppl  think  
about  what  they  can  do.  And  I  think  the  same  thing,  let's  not  complain  about  the  banks,  let's  
not  complain  about  Lehman  Brothers,  I  think  China-­‐USA,  these  are  the  two  countries  that  
should  take  the  lead  to  pick  ppl  up.  We  have  the  largest  potential  domestic  market,  you  
have  the  tech,  innovation,  wonderful  ppl,  and  already  global  position...things.  I  think  if  these  
two  nations  are  united,  understand  each  other,  and  be  open  to  each  other,  
 
23:24  
we  just  solve  the  problem,  much  easier.  
 
23:28  
OS:  before  we  open  the  question  to  you  all,  I  should  just  also  say  that  ppl  listening  over  the  
internet,  please  send  your  Q's  in.    How  do  you  feel  as  you  look  at  America  now,  about  
Obama's  policy,  Clinton's  trip  to  China,  what's  your  sense  of  their  postures  for  China?  
 
23:57  
Ma:  I  think  it's  impressive  for  me.  Obama  telling  um,  I  watched  a  lot  of  movie...and  I  think  
he's  living  the  American  dreams.  From  the  Chinese  pt  of  view,  I  see  the  inspiration  in  his  
heart.  You  want  to  change,  you  want  to  move  things  ahead.  but  I  think  one  thing  i  worry  
about  is  ppl  have  too  high  expectation  of  him,  this  is  a  worry.  
 
24:30  
Just  like,  if  ppl,  my  team  have  too  high  expectation  of  me  instead  of  doing  things  
themselves,  help  each  other.  I  feel  excited  about  what  Obama  said,  and  I  feel  excited  about  
the  incentive  plans,  the  package,  and  I  think  he's  gonna  move  things  ahead,  and  I  think  he's  
got  a  lot  of  good  things...I  feel  excited.  he's  young,  I  think  he's  about  my  age,  or  younger...I  
don’t  know.  
 
25:04  
But  he's  very  young,  energetic,  and  it's  his  chance,  it's  this  generation's  responsibility  to  
take  us  out.  And  I  like  that,  and  I  just  want  to  say,  to  help  him,  to  really  support  him,  is  do  
something.  
 
25:22  
Do  something  yourself.  If  China  solves  its  own  problem,  it's  going  to  help  the  world  solve  its  
problems.  If  China  doesn't  solve  its  mfg  problem,  there  are  so  many  companies  bankrupted,  
it's  going  to  be  another  big  disaster.    Now,  I  think  with  Hillary  Clinton...we're  on  the  same  
boat,  we  care  for  each  other.  I  like  that.    This  is  what...  China,  USA,  Europe,  Japan,  no  one  
should  laugh  at  each  other,  do  not  point  at  each  other.  
 
25:58  
I  tell..the  first  day  when  I  set  up  Alibaba  in  my  apt,  18  ppl,  I  told  my  team,  we  will  have  all  
kinds  of  challenges,  we  may  fail,  we  may  bankrupt,  but  we  never  ever  finger  pointing  to  
each  other.  Let's  solve  the  problem  first.  
 
26:20  
I  think  I  like  Obama  today,  let's  do  something.  And  to  support  him  the  best  thing  is  do  
something  ourselves.  
 
26:30  
OS:  That's  a  godo  American  sentiment.  Audience  question.  
 
 
26:57  
Audience  :  Tell  us  about  your  plan  to  expand  in  the  US?  
 
27:03  
Ma:  We  decided  b/c  last  year,  when  we  realized  the  problem  was  coming,  I  think  the  
problem  was  international  trade.  A  lot  of  SMEs  in  China,  India,  Argentina,  still  want  to  sell  
things  aboard.  But  I  think  because  of  the  economic  crisis,  a  lot  of  ppl  will  not  be  able  to  get  
order.  So  internally,  we  changed  the  business  plan  and  we  changed  the  product  services.  
We  decided  to  invest  13  million  US  dollars  on  marketing,  and  most  of  the  money  will  be  
spent  in  the  USA,  and  2nd  is  Europe.  
 
 And  the  2nd  thing  we  did  on  this  trip,  we  interviewed  a  lot  of  ppl  in  Silicon  Valley,  we  want  
to  expand  more  in  the  US,  we  want  to  hire  more  ppl.  The  2nd  thing  is  b/c  we  now  have  25  
ppl  in  Silicon  Valley,  for  b2b  alone  we  grew  to  50  ppl.    And  we  are  gonna  hire  5000  ppl  in  
China...back  in  China,  when  good  days  come,  we  can  come  back  to  the  States.  B/c  I  
appreciate  many  years  ago,  a  lot  of  Chinese  students  come  to  US,  they  learn  and  they  come  
back  to  contribute.  Today,  I  think  we  are  open,  please  join  us.  we  hire  ppl.  
 
The  3rd  thing  is  that  we  want  to  help  Alibaba  grow  business,  the  S&M  size  
companies...come  to  the  states  to  help  the  SMEs,  help  the  entrepreneurs.  If  you  have  a  
dream,  you  want  to  buy  things  from  China,  sell  things  to  India,  we  give  the  services.  And  i  
think  we  come  here  not  w/  technology,  not  w/  the  money,  we  come  here  w/the  customers  
around  the  world,  w/  the  dreams.    Hire  ppl,  invest  in  market,  and  bring  the  dreams  
together.  Let's  do  something  in  ...various  countries.  
 
29:20  
OS:  q  from  the  internet:  In  an  interview  a  few  years  ago,  you  talked  about  how  ebay  lost  the  
battle  in  china  and  it  will  be  difficult  for  ebay  to  relaunch  in  China.  If  you  were  to  launch  
Taobao  in  the  US,  what  step  would  you  take  to  make  sure  Taobao  doesn't  meet  the  same  
fate  here  as  Ebay?  
 
29:47  
Ma:  We  defeated  Ebay  for  the  first  round.  Ebay  never  lose.  I   always  believe  one  thing,  you  
lose  only  when  you  give  up.  If  you  don’t  give  up,  you  always  have  a  chance.  So  we  were  
lucky  we  won  the  first  round,  we  win  in  China.  But  we  think  in  the  States,  if  we  come  to  the  
States,  we'll  have  the  same  problem.  
 
But  if  we  come  to  the  States,  we  won’t  come  to  compete.  We  come  to  create  value  for  the  
customers.  Many  many  MNCs,  they  go  to  China,  they  want  to  compete  w/  local  companies  
instead  of  making  the  customers  happy.  They  spend  time  making  the  bosses  happy  instead  
of  making  the  customers  happy.  This  is  entrepreneur  ship,  making  the  customers  happy.  If  
we  were  to  come  to  the  States,  we  want  to  make  the  customers  happy.  we  don’t  want  to  
compete  w/  Ebay,  Amazon,  or  ...competition  is  just  fun,  it's  not  the  goal  of  the  business.  
Let's  um  partnership.  
 
So  we,  the  whole  Alibaba  management  come  to  this  time,  we  visited  so  many  companies,  
we  want  to  show...during  the  bubble  period,  everybody  think  about  shares,  revenues...no,  
let's  calm  down,  we  can  do  it  together.  So  we  come  here  looking  for  partners,  we  do  not  
come  to  compete,  and  my  philosophy  is  that  everywhere  we  go,  let  the  local  ppl  partner  be  
the  leader.  If  they  don’t  want  to  be  the  leader,  then  we  will.  If  they  want  to  be  the  leader,  
support  them.  So  I  think  we  do  not  come  here  to  compete  w/  Ebay,  but  we  want  to  see  if  
Ebay  wants  to  work  w/  us.  And  I  think  China's  market  is  big  enough,  US  market...we  come  
here  not  b/c  we  want  to  make  more  revenue  or  profit,  one  of  ht  main  reasons  I  think  I  see  
so  many  SMEs,  so  many  MNCs...they  come  from  small  pieces  (???)  they  need  to  use  the  
same  services  as  Indian  SMEs,  the  Chinese  SMEs,  Korean  SMEs...this  is  why  we  come  here.  
 
32:15  
Question:  now  in  China,  the  SMEs  are  facing  a  big  challenge.  The  Chinese  gov't  announced  a  
large  program  to  help  the  economy,  most  of  it  will  go  to  infrastructure  not  SMEs.  A  lot  of  
ppl  predict  only  a  short  term  benefit,  you  are  the  great  expert  on  SMEs,  you  have  1.8billion  
in  your  bank,  maybe  more.  (Ma:  2  billion)  So  what  is  your  country  going  to  be  able  to  do  to  
Keep  SME  sector  in  China  healthy  and  growing?  
 
33:10  
Ma:  that's  a  godo  question,  i  think  china  gov't  is  focused  on  the  infrastructure,  the  big  
companies.  I  consider  this  the  first  step.    There  will  be  more  steps,  one  step  wont'  solve  the  
problem.  To  solve  the  problem  it  takes  2nd  step,  3rd  step,  4  step.  So  this  is  first.  2ndly,  I  
personally  have  strong  confidence  in  SMEs.The  SMEs,  the  godo  things  for  them  is  they  
never  have  bank  loans  before.  So  they  don’t  have  bank  loans,  so  what?  Most  SMEs  in  China,  
the  world  live  in  terrible  conditions.  But  at  least  I  heard  today  form  the  world  leaders  they  
are  paying  attn  to  the  SMEs,  I'm  not  trying  to  plead  the  gov't  to  help  the  SMEs...please  do  
something...meanwhile  I  encourage  SMEs  to  do  something.  No  one  helped  us  in  he  past  18  
years,  we  helped  ourselves.    We  grew  from  18  ppl  SME  to  12,000.  we're  till  considered  
SMEs.  
 
I  think  very  important,  the  banks,  as  I  said  earlier  this  year  in  China,  most  of  the  
banks...wow,  we'll  help  SMEs.  But  none  of  them  took  action,  very  few  of  them,  banks  do  not  
change,  let's  change  the  banks.  we  have  to  move  forward.  We  are  today  in  China,  we  try  to  
convince  China  Construction  Bank  to  give  loans  under  1  billion  (?)  to  SMEs.  
 
34:55  
and  I  think  China's  gov't  is  smart  enough.  Job  creation  is  the  number  1  priority  in  next  1  
year  or  2,  and  everyone  knows  the  prospect  of  SME  and  job  creation,  the  engine.  so  this  is  
the  engine,  next  step.  But  again,  most  of  the  SMEs,  they  are  entrepreneurs,  entrepreneurs  
move  ahead  themselves.  SME,  come  easy,  die  easy.  But  if  they  do  it  in  a  proper  way,  they  
find  it.  I  believe  SMEs  are  good,  I've  got  confidence  b/c  in  the  old  days,  only  big  companies  
can  afford  IT  technology,  only  big  companies  can  afford  those  things.  Today,  SME  can  use  IT  
at  the  same  cost.  And  I  think  5  years  later  b/c  of  the  financial  crisis,  I  bet  there  will  be  a  
system  of  financing  SMEs,  of  supporting  SMEs.    This  is  a  great  chance  I  see,  this  is  the  
mission  that  Alibaba  team  should  have,  to  make  China...eh....we  have  the  river,  like  
Changjiang  river,  but  we  don’t'  have  the  channel  to  water  all  the  fields.    So  this  watering  
system  is  something...where  the  opportunities  are  for  the  next  5  yrs.  
 
36;37  
OS:  next  question:  
 
You're  a  teacher  and  you’re    business  person...do  university  in  China  and  US  produce/teach  
entrepreneurs  and  how  do  you  produce  entrepreneurs?  
 
36:54  
Ma:  I'm  still  a  teacher,  up  till  now  I  don’t  know  about  the  market,  about  finance.  And  I  tell  
ppl  what  I  read,  I  still  work  as  a  teacher.      And  I...this  is  the  debate  I  have  with  MBA  ppl.  I  
think  95%  of  the  MBA  joined  the  Alibaba  for  the  first  4  years,  before  2004,  and  95%  left.  I  
think  there  are  2  reasons,  ppl  always  want  to  look  for  the  best  ppl.  I  don’t  want  the  best  ppl,  
I  want  the  most  compatible  ppl.  
 
Some  companies  believe  in  elite,  the  genius  guy.  We  believe  in  normal  ppl.  So  I  think  the  
MBAs...when  they  join  Alibaba,  they  talk  about  big  strategy.  Everything  they  say  is  right,  but  
everything  they  do  is  terrible.    
 
37:58  
I  don’t  know  what  is  wrong.  And  the  china  education  and  American  education  def  needs  
some  change.  So  i  call  ourselves,  if  you  find  good  ppl  and  you're  not  ready,  it's  like  buying  a  
Boeing  707  engine  to  put  into  a  tractor.  And  both  sides  are  frustrated.  Today,  
entrepreneurship  in  the  Universities  are  not  taught,  and  they  cannot  be  taught.  Most  
professors  tell  me  we  teach  skills,  we  don’t  teach  entrepreneurs.    I  think  it  can  be  taught  if  
they  want  to.  I  think  if  profs  are  real  entrepreneurs,  it  can  be  taught.  
 
38:30  
OS:  what  about  the  idea  that  you  really  become  an  entrepreneur  by  being  an  entrepreneur.  
 
39:00  
Ma:  I  have  said  that,  Alibaba  is  testing  it,  we're  testing  ourselves.  I  think  entrepreneurship  
can  be  taught.    Professors  can't  tell  you  why  we're  successful  instead  of  opening  a  barber  
shop.    He  cannot  teach  you  entrepreneurship.  He  cannot  teach  you  entrepreneurship  
inside.    So,  20  yrs  later,  we  call  it  Alibab  school  focus  on  teaching  entrepreneurship.  
 
39;34  
OS:  Jack,  do  you  think  that  in  some  way  economic  crisis  we're  all  experience  is  going  to  help  
out  Alibaba...b/c  what  you  provide  is  what's  needed  in  a  moment  like  this,  or  do  you  think  
we'll  end  up???  
 
39:52  
Ma:  honestly,  I've  never  been  that  excited  to  see  this  financial  economic  crisis,  personally.  I  
see  it  as  an  opportunity,  as  all  human  beings...it's  the  transition  period  from  labor  intensive,  
machine  intensive,  money  intensive,  to  knowledge  intensive.  To  innovation,  to  create  
innovation.  I  can't  believe  10  yrs  ago,  w/o  internet,  w/o  technology,  w/o  knowledge  based  
economy,  I  could  stand  here  to  speak.    I  ???  my  father's  knowledge,  my  father  was  a  gov't  
officer,  w/o  a  rich  uncle  somewhere.  I  think  this  is  a  good  opportunity,  absolutely.  
 
40;45  
china  today  has  300  million  internet  users,  ...3  yrs  ago,  I  said  in  one  of  the  forums  in  the  US,  
I  said,  in  3  years,  i  believe  internet  users  in  China  will  be  bigger...the  number  will  be  much  
bigger  than  US.    And  a  lot  of  my  friends,  my  Internet  colleagues,  said  no  no  no.  And  i  said,  
we  have  1.3  bil  ppl,  you  only  have  around  300  mil  ppl,  for  you  guys  to  have  more  than  300  
ppl  to  use  the  internet,  it  takes  2  years  to  have  babies.  For  us,  5  years.    So  we  believe,  next  5  
years,  China's  internet  users,  mobile  internet  users,  will  be  500  mil  users.  When  business  
start  to  use  computers,  when  they  start  to  use  internet,  they'll  never  stop.  I  don’t'  think  they  
will  go  back  to  pen  and  papers,  they  will  keep  on  using  the  internet,  the  computers.  I  have  
confidence,  and  I  think  making  that  thing  happen  is  our  dream,  our  mission.  
 
And  I'm  working  on  that.  
  
42:06  
OS:  last  question:  
 
How  do  you  see  the  new  wave  of  smart  ppl  going  back  to  China?  Can  they  survive?  
 
42:40  
Ma:  Sorry  for  speaking  the  things  upfront.  I  want  to  say,  don’t  believe  you  are  smart,  there  
are  always  smarter  ppl.  If  this  guy  believes  that  I'm  smart,  then  he's  in  trouble.  The  
experience  I  got,  everywhere  I  go,  I  find  smarter  ppl  than  me.  So  smart  ppl  usually  know  
there  are  much  smarter  ppl  than  they  are.    China  today,  I  think  China...the  US  market  made  
it  too  open,  and  brought  the  financial  market  into  extreme  of  this  (??)  (hand  motion),  but  
china  is  this  (???).  So  I  think  there  are  huge  opportunities  in  China.  I  think  ppl  like  financial  
guys,  and  ppl  who  graduate  from  MBAs,  go  to  China,  and  open  it.  And  there  is  huge  
potential  there.  But  never  ever  think  you  are  smart  ppl,  that  you're  wonderful  ppl,  you  
want  to  go  back,  you  want  to  save  something,  you  want  to  solve  something.    
 
43:55  
No.  We  hire  a  lot  of  professionals  from  outside  companies,  many  of  them  join  us.  "Ok...I'm  
VP  of  multinational  company  and  you  are  a  terrible  shabby  small  start  up,  let's  solve  the  
problem.  And  i  remember  when  we  only  have  500  million  dollar  capital  and  the  guy  gave  
me  a  presentation  12  million  dollars  to  spend  on  marketing,  and  I  look  at  it  go,  omg  it's  a  
wonderful  plan,  but  I  have  no  money.  
 
he  said,  i  never  spend  money  below  10  million.  and  I  said,  I  only  have  5  million,  don’t  waste  
money!  I  have  these  kind  of  terrible  experience.  And  these  ppl  came  to  you  to  
understanding  you,  they  don’t  work  little  by  little,  not  by  sleeves  up  but..???,  never  work.  
 
So  if  you  go  back  to  China,  ...just  last  example.  
 
44:57  
Many  MBAs  join  Alibaba,  the  first  thing  they  give  me  is  the  business  plan,  business  strategy.  
Oh  my  god  wonderful  plan,  wonderful  strategy,  I  don’t'know  how  to  answer  them.    Later  I  
said,  anybody  give  me  business  plan,  within  3  months  of  joining  the  company,  usually  leave  
the  company.  If  he  thinks  he's  smarter,  he  should  build  up  his  own  business.  Understand  
the  company,  digest.  So  the  company,  the  guy  who  joined  the  company,  i  sent  to  the  sales  
ppl.  We  have  more  than  3000  off  ground  sales  knocking  door  to  door,  talk  to  the  managers,  
listen,  I  sent  those  MBAs  to  these  and  most  of  them  die.  I  say,  if  you  survive  after  6  months,  
come  back  everything  you  tell  me  I  listen.  Otherwise  byebye  see  you  next  time.  Don't  think  
you  have  knowledge...tell  yourself,  what  I  have,  I  have  terrible  experience  in  the  US,  i  don’t  
care  to  have  another  terrible  experience  in  China.  If  you  have  this  kind  of  mood,  you    have  a  
chance  to  win.    And  we  think,  we're  looking  for  not  experience,  we're  looking  for  those  ppl  
ready  to  take  from  tiny  things,  and  take  actions,  and  humble,  and  working  hard.  So  I  think,  
chance  there,  opportunity  there,  opportunity  in  the  states.  5  yrs  later  the  US  security,  
financial  industry  will  be  back.  When  ppl  worry  too  much,  good  thing  coming.  My  last  
comment...last  August  was  the  most  terrible  period,  just  before  the  earthquake  came  it  was  
the  most  terrible  period.  Now  the  Earthquake  came,  let's  think  about  rebuilding.  
 
I  think  I've  never  seen  so  many  gov't  leaders,  business  leaders,  normal  ppl  focused,  cared  
about  the  financial  crisis.  If  the  expressway  there's  traffic,  policeman  there,  the  mayor  
there...there  will  be  no  disaster,  and  fix  the  problem.  We  will  rebuild  it,  so  there's  
opportunity  in  the  states.  In  5  years,  new  security  system  will  be  build  up.  the  world  will  be  
good,  as  long  as  we're  prepared.  Today  is  difficult,  tomorrow  is  much  more  difficult,  see  the  
sunshine  the  day  after  tomorrow.  Don’t  die  tomorrow.  
 
Notes:  
1.  It  sounds  like  a  graduation  ceremony  speech:  take  action  now,  adapt  to  crisis,  tomorrow  
is  beautiful,  pursue  your  dreams...  
 
2.  Ma  puts  a  lot  of  emphasis  on  the  Open  Door  policy.    Echoes  Gavin  Ni...possibilities  opened  
up  because  of  the  policy.  
 
3.  Saw  the  bubble  burst  coming  b/c  ppl  only  talk  about  money.  
 
4.  Believes  in  Chinese  gov'ts  execution  power  and  ability  to  make  things  happen.  
 
5.  China  should  rely  on  domestic  market  and  the  countryside  to  develop  further.  
Comparable  to  Cui  Zhiyuan,  who  also  believes  that  China  now  relies  more  on  the  domestic  
market.  But  it  seems  that  Ma  is  of  the  more  common  belief  that  China  grew  b/c  of  export-­‐
dominated  mfg  market  and  will  now  decline  b/c  of  the  decline  of  export  whereas  Cui  is  of  
the  opinion  that  China  has  always  relied  on  domestic  market.  
 
6.  Emphasizes  that  China  needs  to  solve  the  manufacturing  problem  in  order  to  fix  the  
financial  crisis  in  China.  
 
7.  Sees  the  economic  crisis  as  a  transition  point  towards  a  more  knowledge  based  economy.  
 
 
 
*The  full-­‐length  video  of  this  interview  is  available  in  the  online  repository  of  Rutgers  
University  Libraries:  http://rucore.libraries.rutgers.edu