We meet Chris Fuller, a reluctant student with dyslexia who was hand-picked to do a paid PHD. Chris spent time in the UK intelligence community before emerging to work in cyber security startups. Chris advises aspiring people to work harder than they expect they have to, and talks about how his success stems from being surrounded by interesting and interested people. Plus we learn why he doesn't have a pet cat. He talks about the value of failing, and learning from failure, and the value of spending time listening to experts.
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Matt Egan ( .928) Okay.
Hello, hello, hello. Welcome to First Person, the show where we meet the most interesting people in IT and learn from them what makes them tick by focusing only on their firsts. I'm your host, Matt Egan, asking you to enjoy, like and subscribe wherever you find us.
And if you are an interesting person in IT, let us know. You might be the next First Person. The next voice you hear will be today's guest. He is Chris Fuller. Chris is Chief Product Officer in an AI cybersecurity business. focused on transforming security operations.
He previously served as an intelligence officer in the UK intelligence community. He holds a PhD in astrophysics and is passionate about improving how security teams operate, think and make decisions. And from that, you can tell that Chris is definitely one of the most interesting people in IT.
And we're really delighted to have him as a guest on First Person. So Chris, first of all, welcome. And I'm going to ask you that horrible question we asked everybody, but what's the first thing people should know about you? Chris Fuler (
.99) suppose there are a few first things you should know about me. First and foremost, I'm a Christian. I live in the United States of America being a Brit, which is always interesting, especially around July, Fourth of July, there's always some tension.
But I've three children and⦠Matt Egan ( .458) Wow.
Lots of things to unpick there. yes, I definitely empathize with, I have some experience of everything you described then. Definitely working for a US company for the past 22 years. It is kind of interesting when we get to July the 4th.
And, know, I always like to say, we miss you guys. We take you back any time, but, you know, please enjoy your celebration. So with that, we'll move on to section one, which we call⦠Chris Fuler ( .596) Hahaha Matt Egan (
.472) first things first.
And this is where we like to get to know about our guests by understanding some of their first times. And Chris, I'm really excited to ask you about this actually.
Could you tell us about your first job in this industry, in IT, and maybe a little bit about how you got there? Chris Fuler (
.702) Yes, I think, I was finished up my degree in Cardiff, and I was actually set to become a teacher. my wife's teacher. I was really engaged with the idea of being a teacher.
And then one of my physics professors at Cardiff said, Hey, would you think about doing a PhD? I actually thought they'd be the last person to ask to be doing a PhD. And, yeah, that kind of really captivated me. I thought, Hey, that would be kind of crazy.
I love astrophysics. I thought I'd get paid for it. And so I don't know if it's the first job, it's like it was paid. But you know, I thought that was like, awesome.
I went into the interview, they said, hey, you know, you could do this one, which is up for like, you know, probably, you know, be part of this big collaboration, do gravitational waves, they'll probably get the Nobel Prize.
Or you could travel to all these interesting telescopes and places. And, and I chose the one with the interesting places. So that was kind of my first job in IT. Matt Egan ( .593) Yeah.
Yeah? Chris Fuler (
.814) which was really interesting because I think academic departments tend to collect very varied people. So you get to learn really interesting things. It was the first time I started really writing code and really learning how to do things technically.
But it was also like a really fun place where the problems were really tough. And, you know, the one of the guys that I worked with, you know, he said, yeah, my PhD didn't work out. Like the satellite blew up on the launch pad.
And so Matt Egan ( .383) Mm-hmm.
Chris Fuler (
.21) He ended up actually, you know, ended up going into IT, administrate the systems at Cardiff.
But it was one of those things where I thought that's a really interesting place to learn how to solve problems around some really interesting people and then go and visit lots of like amazing places and, you know, operate in lots of interesting environments. Matt Egan ( .015) Interesting.
So if you don't let me ask him what was the first degree in that your professor took you from and invited you to do the PhD. Chris Fuler (
.996) So, mean, I was doing a bachelor's in astrophysics and so it was like a pretty natural progression in some senses, but, it's, I always think actually a bachelor's is harder in a lot of ways than your PhD.
Your PhD just requires you to really focus for like three or four years.
and so it's kind of, more like blood, sweat and tears, but, know, I feel like sometimes it's just one of those things you just have to push through it and to, you know, I mean, again, Matt Egan ( .217) Interesting.
Yeah. Matt Egan ( .977) Right.
Matt Egan ( .581) Thank you.
You can get through it. Chris Fuler (
.788) Like most people haven't written essentially like what would be a body of work that'd be published. And I was pretty terrible at writing at the time.
So that was actually one of the things that I wrote for you guys about the first time about in, in CIO, about just like how I felt like writing was such an important thing, but actually like it was my PhD that taught me that.
And I was just awful, awful writer. Actually my PhD advisor said I was the worst that he had ever seen ever. He just said like, I just never seen anyone. Matt Egan ( .493) You Chris Fuler (
.26) with such a low bar for writing. was pretty dyslexic or I'm pretty dyslexic. So it was, but it was like something I'd never really doing a scientific kind of track of, of work. I think it ever really had to write anything more than like a page.
And even then it's, it's mostly just maths and things like that. So I think going into a job where like, it was deeply technical, but the expectation was that people would write and the people around me were outstanding.
The people outside the room around me would write like, you know, like I would drink water. Matt Egan ( .585) Yeah.
Yeah. Chris Fuler (
.08) And so was like one of those things where it was really hard. was amazing environment to be exposed to.
And I felt like it was one of those things that at the end of it, it was a very painful experience to get to the point where I could publish my PhD, but it was amazing from the standpoint of I walked away with this skill of writing and communicating and data analysis.
And I was very grateful to do my PhD. feel like for me, it was, I really loved the subject matter, but the skills that I felt like I obtained there were amazing. Matt Egan ( .179) Hehehehe.
Matt Egan (
.384) think it's very relevant and you'd be surprised at how many people like we have this conversation with and the thing that's really allowed them to progress is not only the knowledge and the insight, it's the fact that they can express it and communicate it.
And that's sometimes a bit that's missing, right? So, you know, kudos to you for being able to push through and get to those very important skills. I will say⦠not everybody, certainly not everybody who is dyslexic, does a bachelor's degree in astrophysics.
So I'm really interested in where that came from. That's a really kind of specific interest and you must be great because you don't get to do that unless you are a really smart person. So where do think that came from?
Where do think that initial instinct to take that course came from in your life? Chris Fuler (
.462) Actually, my dad did a degree in physics. My dad's got a fantastic story. He comes from the Midlands, which I'm sure for anybody in the UK will understand, but it's kind like the rust belt of America for American listeners.
But then went to work for Shell and ended up going back to night school to get his A levels and going back to university later, did physics. And so I think he went into the oil industry and you Matt Egan ( .295) Right.
.998) super interesting person, my dad. And, but I think for me, I'd always kind of grown up looking at him and like, he loved solving problems from first principles.
And I felt like, I never really understood that to the same degree, but when I went to do that degree, I just loved the subject matter. I loved the fact that you could solve it.
Like a lot of, I feel like a lot of learning is like a lot of memorizing, which is true of physics as well.
But I think there's something about it where, my first physics professor, he kind of exactly who you would think of, like long wavy hair, he looks a bit like Gandalf. He was a very lovely man, but slightly odd. But he would just pick up a piece of paper.
You could ask him any question. His office was like, literally like, I've never seen an office like it.
You couldn't see the floor, the desk, anything, but he would just pick up a piece of paper and he would just work from totally from first principles to wherever you wanted to think through, whatever you were asking him. Matt Egan ( .453) Yeah.
.538) And I found that the most engaging thing where he could take you from the base principles all the way through to these like incredibly complex solutions.
And I thought it was amazing that that's the way the world is that you can actually understand these like kind of elemental things about it.
And then suddenly talk about how the sun works or talk about how a galaxy works or talk about all of those sorts of things. I just thought that that like as an idea is like incredible.
And so I feel for me, like the thing which captured me about physics, it's just super interesting subject. It just so happens that I think that like, it's a good thing to try and do, you know, stuff that like has maths involved, all those sorts of things.
But I think it took me a long time to love the maths and the computing and all the rest of it. I just loved the subject to begin with. Matt Egan (
.019) Yeah, it's amazing because I could not get on with any of the sciences when I was in education.
But hearing you speak now, all I want to do is go back to go back to college and learn about physics, because that's such a seductive idea, right, that you can solve a problem working from first principles. And he sounds like an amazing, amazing professor.
But so we have you now. You've you've you've seen your father. You've been inspired to do the work. The degree's been great. The PhDs taught you these extra skills. But how do you go from being that successful PhD candidate to where you are now?
Like that's not cyber security, right? So somewhere along the line, you followed a non-academic path. Chris Fuler (
.138) Yeah, I think so I was going to end my PhD was actually about in the middle of my PhD. And I really thought that physics was a lot of fun.
But it's it's a super hard, you know, in terms of like, on your family, I think what most people don't understand is that the track to become it's such a small slice of the world that like to actually get to become a permanent member of staff, which is sort of where your Matt Egan ( .513) Yeah.
Chris Fuler ( .566) air quotes safe.
It's not really air quotes safe, but it's more safe than a postdoc. And I, you know, like I had some potential job that I could have done in Florence, Italy, which sounded amazing.
But like all things, you know, like, it was one of those things where family, think, had to come first.
And it was, I just didn't want to kind of send us on this track of like, going to all these different places and having speculative jobs, all that sort of stuff. And I looked at I thought, Matt Egan (
.429) Not at the minute, no, but yeah. Chris Fuler (
.478) Am I as good at this as the people around me? Am I like really willing to make all those sacrifices? And I think at the end of the day, I thought, I don't think so. I thought, you know what?
Um, I love a lot of the elements of it and I'm glad that I learned how to write, but actually the idea of writing grant applications and all of those, it just, it felt like the more that you went up that ladder, the harder it was to do that role.
And so I thought that I'll allow better people to go and do it. And I thought. I looked at like a ton of different jobs actually.
I like that's one of the hardest things where there are like storybook jobs, you that you read in like in pharma teacher, you those sorts of things. I think you just know those things.
You know what your parents did, but I think the kind of corporate world, IT, cybersecurity, it was just a mystery to me.
So I just applied to a bunch of different roles, talked to people and ended up applying into the Intel community and you know, thought that sounds like a fun job. Matt Egan ( .423) Yeah.
Matt Egan ( .717) Storybook games.
.984) it sounds like a crazy job. And I didn't know if anybody would, you know, how, how can you go and do such a thing? But then I thought, well, there are people there with two arms, two legs, you know, yeah, exactly. So somebody's doing that job.
So I thought, well, why not go and try and do that? Sounds like a really fun thing to do. And so, you know, I, I went and joined there and I thought that was an amazing place to work. It's obviously difficult to go into specifics.
Matt Egan ( .297) Thank Matt Egan (
.969) Somebody does it, right? Yeah. Chris Fuler (
.848) I think some of the things that I thought were so amazing about that were, and why I still like heartily recommend it to almost every person that ever asks for any sort of like career advice is because I think one, they, again have a really interesting problem and mission and you're never going to be able to, you know, like I always used to think this about my PhD, which was like, you can go to the top of Mauna Kea in Hawaii.
Like you can rent a car and you can drive to the top of Mauna Kea on Hawaii. You cannot work for 14 hours in an observatory up on the top of Mauna Kea, like staring into the, you know, the furthest, you know, reaches of the universe.
And it's sort of the same with, you know, the Intel community, you know, like it's honestly stranger than fiction at many, many points. And so for me, I looked at it I thought this is a really interesting problem to solve.
These problems are⦠Matt Egan ( .037) You Chris Fuler (
.334) like just so fascinating to think about. And then just to apply technical skills to those problems, I thought was just a really fun thing to do. And it was. And I think the thing on top of that is the training was amazing.
So I feel like, you know, big companies, governments, I always say that to people, especially young in their career. I'm like, hey, startups sound really exciting. And I obviously, CPO at a startup, founder of startups. I love startups.
But I always think that actually like big companies like, you know, Google, Facebook, et cetera, or government is a great place to go. If you go there, I'm to do something like three or four years, try it out.
They'll give you some of the best training in the world. And then if you want to go and do something else, can. If you want to stay, you can.
I feel for me, again, I felt like I got a huge amount out of it in terms of the people that I met. To this day, I've still got a lot of friends from that world. Matt Egan ( .076) Yeah.
.062) and the people that, you know, mentored me. was incredibly lucky to have a very, very talented, you know, boss who, you know, again, we're still friends to this day. And, you know, he taught me a huge amount.
And I feel like for me, if that was something I've learned from my career, it is definitely important what you do, but I feel like it's one of those things. It matters hugely, like who you do it with.
And yeah, I was very lucky to⦠Matt Egan ( .322) Yes.
.875) to have a lot of who's that I thought were great to be around. Matt Egan ( .773) Yeah.
I think one of my bug bears is when we all do respect, you refer to yourself as lucky, but I think it's good fortune, right?
Because clearly, if we look at the bachelor degree to the PhD, the PhD to the intelligence community, like there's some themes that really come through, right? You're really curious and interested in doing the learning and solving the problem. You want to work with interesting people, right?
And the thing about interesting people is⦠everybody's interesting to somebody who is interested, right? Like, you know, if you're curious and you're willing to see that in the other person, I think the benefits there.
It's really interesting to hear you talk about large organizations, government organizations and training, because it's a theme that's come up several times in these conversations with people from wildly different backgrounds that, you know, you can go and do whatever you want.
But at some point, it's really good to get that that real base grounding of the best training, right, and the best principle. and to work for organisations where excellence is the only thing that's good enough.
Also, we almost always ask about the first great boss, and I'm really interested in this person you referred to who is still your friend, and what was it that they did for you, do you think, that makes you think of them as a great boss? Chris Fuler (
.246) so, his name's Tom, he's now working in the, the, the, the normal world. He works in GitHub. he, I think what I loved about Tom is, in a very, you know, kind of, orthodox environment, Tom like thought in a very different way.
I thought what I really admired about him was that he didn't, accept the constraints that were around him. Matt Egan ( .757) Mm-hmm.
.618) He very much thought about like how the problem could be solved. He was like very problem centric. I thought he also had this incredible knack with people. Like he was incredible at like networking. but he gave me like one of those great pithy phrases.
I feel like I've got several from him, but one of the great phrases he said to me was like, make people like an ends in themselves, which is one of those like slightly corny things that, you know, I think a lot of people would nod to, but he actually really meant it.
And that made a huge difference because You knew that he would network and talk to you and he would talk to other people to try and figure things out and to try and like work out how people could collaborate together.
But you also knew that like he wasn't trying to manipulate you or play you. And I think for me, I've always felt again that that's like an incredible way to work. And over the length of a career, it makes a huge difference.
If I think we all intrinsically know when somebody's being manipulative or like self-serving. Matt Egan ( .925) Totally.
.126) Whereas actually I felt like that was one of the great things about Tom. And then I think finally, I think, he didn't always necessarily make a ton of friends doing this.
He would always like, I was super new in the department and he would send me to stuff that like, know, I, you know, honestly, like I was super junior and he threw me into stuff that, you know, I thought was super exciting and amazing.
And I was super glad to be a part of. Matt Egan ( .745) Yeah.
.848) But it was one of those things where he wasn't afraid to do that. And he wasn't afraid to kind of like give you trust and let you execute on things that had some risks to them.
And I felt like through that, like, you know, I learned a lot. And he just also just gave a lot of like great advice. He just, and his advice was often like, was specific people in the team.
And he just said to me, look, if I, if they start talking to you in the morning, just talk to them. Don't like, don't turn around and try and get on with work. Like he was like, just listen to them.
And I felt like there was a few individuals, um, you know, that I, I just listened to in the morning and I'd honestly like get in, get in early.
I'd go make myself a coffee and I'd sit down and I would just, they were generally, you know, people, I feel like you get those sorts of people in life that love to tell stories, to, you know, kind of help develop you.
And I just listened and I felt like in those conversations, I learned a ton. So I feel like he, he was a great boss for just so many reasons, but I thought those were some of the things that he did. He was just great at his job.
Matt Egan ( .391) And yeah.
.894) I mean, frankly, like he was just, he was outstanding at what he did, which in itself you can just observe and watch. Matt Egan (
.931) Yeah, but amazing to have because I think, again, themes come through throughout this conversation and in other conversations we have this idea of like people are an end in themselves. Right. Absolutely. And you're totally correct. Right. You can always tell when someone's being manipulative.
It's often fine, but it's very different from when someone gives of themselves to you. Like that network and that collaboration builds. And it's amazing how often it gets paid back. in positive ways. And it's just better anyway, right? It's just a nicer way to be and to work.
But I've never heard that advice before. If someone talks to you, listen to them. But it's so valuable. And I worry about it in a kind of hybrid remote work environment because I don't think we have enough of that anymore of the junior person.
But even then, with the junior person, if you spot talent, put them in the situation. And you see this all the time that the really confident, successful people will do that. They'll take somebody in. It doesn't matter if they're not qualified to be in that situation.
Who knows what they're going to give to you from it. You have to take a chance on people and push them forward. And another overarching theme from what we're saying here is you also have to know the opportunity exists.
And you talked about your dad being into physics, making you understand that that world existed. That really resonated. I remember finishing my bachelor's degree, which, by the way, was in English and drama. not many roots open at that point. Chris Fuler (
.335) You clearly don't struggle with writing. Matt Egan (
.511) No, not that we're writing, but entering the world of work at that point and just not knowing what was out there. So I love the advice she gave about the intelligence community, like say, somebody has to do that job, and it might as well be you.
So this is fascinating, Chris, I really appreciate it, but it's all too successful at this point, so we need to move on to the less successful side of things. So this is section three. Well, here we go. Chris Fuler (
.11) I've had many, many failures. I like to say I've more exams than most people have ever sat. So I feel like for failure in life, can certainly tell you many stories. Matt Egan ( .115) Yeah.
Well, let's start with one then. If I asked you for your big mistake, what is the first thing that comes to mind when I ask that question? Chris Fuler (
.336) I yeah, great question.
feel like honestly, I think being able to deal with failure is one of the most important career skills because I feel like if you're not failing at stuff, I mean, I'll tell you, I mean, this is not from trying hard, this is the opposite, but I think in many cases we can talk about startup in a minute, but I think like, Matt Egan ( .493) Thanks, man.
.39) learning how to deal with failure is really important. I failed for all the wrong reasons. I've failed my AS levels, just because I just didn't do any work. I was really lazy.
And I just thought, I thought, I thought education was stupid because I was 17 and, you know, you know, I feel like I meet 17 year olds that were, you know, more switched on and wiser than I was at the age. Matt Egan ( .511) That will happen.
Matt Egan ( .866) Yeah Matt Egan (
.396) Yeah.
.796) And then I repeated the act in the first year of college. So actually the same professor I was talking to about earlier, like I, you know, he was like, Hey, I think, you know, you should probably leave.
You should probably leave physics and, know, just go and get a job. It's clear that you don't want to be here. And actually that was like a huge point in my life where, you know, like a lot changed for me.
And I, I really realized that like, I, I made some huge mistakes. I think for me, like, Matt Egan ( .244) Yeah.
.212) I made some huge mistakes. kind of paid for them in the sense that, you know, I was, I was two years older at least when, you know, I was in college, I actually had some health issues, meant I had another year to all of that.
So in some sense, I feel like education was like tough. I think some of that is a function of just, you know, honestly, sheer stupidity and just, just, just not making good choices. Some of that.
was a function of I lived in lots of different countries growing up that was sort of just having a dad who was in the oil industry we lived in a few different places went to different schools and just really dyslexic struggled with school a lot and tried to figure out other ways to other ways to to basically be successful in my own eyes and I think a lot of that was like messing around and trying to make jokes and all those sorts of things.
And I think as time went on, I realized like it wasn't funny anymore, but unfortunately I had to be about 21 before I got to that point. Matt Egan ( .923) Yeah.
.311) That's pretty, it's pretty young to get to that point, I would say, to be honest with you. Chris Fuler (
.283) I mean, I'd say many years before I really learned the lesson, yeah. Matt Egan ( .257) Yeah.
I always look back to my, like I said, I studied English and drama and I didn't go to university when I was 20 because basically messing around, same sort of thing.
And it was only in my last year at university that the penny suddenly dropped, that I was, and in those days this was the case, I was being paid to spend time with the world's great literature.
And the only thing that was stopping me doing more of it was just me being lazy and thinking I was somehow winning by doing the minimal amount. effort.
like I can remember it's like a real Damascene moment where I was kind of like, oh, yeah, I could just do this really hard. And it's great. And I would enjoy it.
And it took me two and half years of being at university doing it to sort of realize that kind of thing. So I think, you know, I think everyone's allowed that learning time.
What's amazing is that you've gone from having such a hard time with education to being a PhD. I mean, that's a huge achievement, really. And if these were your mistakes, were the mistakes gone? Chris Fuler (
.57) like credit I was to say that kind of that's why I was so surprised when that professor said to me, would you think about doing a PhD? just thought the last person that you would want a PhD.
You know, but I think that's the thing I think like all things, you know, for me, I looked at it from a standpoint of I think I'd seen the other side of it.
And I thought, okay, that, you know, like, it is actually a really sweet thing to be able to do, which is just to Matt Egan ( .275) Yeah.
Matt Egan ( .474) Yeah.
Matt Egan ( .69) Yeah.
Matt Egan ( .009) Yes.
.742) you know, to being, you know, university studying, enjoying all of those sorts of things. I thought the idea of getting paid to do a PhD, I thought was the most bizarre idea. I didn't realize that was a thing.
You know, like I understood that there was a thing called a PhD. I just, I just didn't ever think really like I would be doing that. So I think for me, I do think like I felt very blessed doing all of those things.
And I did just feel like for me, it very easily could have gone another way. Matt Egan (
.809) Yeah, well, I'm not sure I fully believe this, but like there's a saying in sports psychology, right, that success is paid for in failure. So, you you have to go through the not winning in order to win at a certain point.
And I wonder if, you know, I mean, this professor does sound amazing and you clearly are outstanding, right? Because even despite everything, there was enough interest there that you were the person they wanted to do the PhD. It's a pretty cool story, I would say.
One of the questions. like to ask at this point is about the first time you realise something you thought you knew may actually be wrong.
But I feel like we've covered that a lot anyway and I guess your first principles approach would mean you're less likely to hold on to views. But can you think of something that you thought you knew that it turns out isn't right? Chris Fuler (
.534) Yeah, I suppose for me, again, without getting into specifics for obvious reasons, but I felt like I had an idea and I thought it would be a really good idea to try, even though it was a slightly bizarre idea.
And then Tom, my boss, helped me to go into what was then known as the incubator program. And we went and⦠We executed really well. We gathered a team. We did all sorts of things.
But then actually at the end of it, the idea just didn't work out because I just didn't understand how large organizations worked. So for me, I was like, okay, I feel like I've had what genuinely was quite a good idea.
But we've done all the technical things right, which honestly was⦠Matt Egan ( .752) Mm-hmm.
.15) It wasn't like the hardest technical thing in the world. It just was, he just a really left field idea. And then I came back and I didn't know how to like bring this thing back into the business.
Um, and it was, it was like really frustrating for me at the time. Like I didn't handle that particularly well. I just felt very frustrated.
Um, but I think for me, um, I looked at it and I thought, okay, well, how do, how do you go and learn how that stuff works? And actually that was where I realized like I wanted to step out of government for a while.
intentionally like initially I kind of saw it like maybe I'll step out for a couple of years and then come back. And that was when I joined a company called Obsidian Security. So there, that was why I moved to the States.
At the time when I first started talking to them, I think they were about 10 months old. They were the founders or kind of previous very senior execs. two companies called silence and carbon black.
there was three, three founders and they both had exits of like, you know, 1.6 billion a piece. So like they were really successful. They'd started a company. I was actually like staggered. I was looking for something super early with, with, successful founders.
And I did actually look all over. actually interviewed in a company in Bristol in the UK to do it was doing autonomous driving. I had one of worst interviews of my life. At one point, the CTO popped his head around the door and how's he doing?
And they were like, not great. I was like, wow.
So I feel like, you know, I, you know, I feel like, I, I'd gone through a series, actually a long period of interviewing for companies and I found it very difficult to come out and talk about what I'd done previously. I had a bit of a strange background.
I didn't feel like I was a mathematician, but didn't feel like I was, Matt Egan ( .776) Yeah Chris Fuler (
.662) software engineer either I kind of pulled together all these like hybrid skills and you know, it was kind of like a jack of all trades master of none.
And I think that was definitely a realization that like it's much easier if you have a skill that you've mastered and then you add to that rather than just being a generalist.
Certainly in tech and I felt like that was a really difficult process, but eventually I found this company Obsidian interviewed, just really like loved the way that they approach things. And, you know, their deal was like, hey, we want you to move out to Newport Beach, California.
We'll pay for you and your family to move out here. This was 2018. And at the time they were thinking like, we come out in like a month. I think they or I understood the pain of the visa process and you know, Matt Egan ( .536) Ha!
.13) Donald Trump just got elected. So he changed some of the visa rules like on coming in, which meant that it took another 18 months to get out here. But, but I felt like that for me was like, I had this huge failure in some senses.
It'd been a success doing this incubator, but then it just failed to actually deliver any real value because I didn't understand how to build this. I didn't understand the non-technical elements. And I felt for me watching a startup.
I joined Obsidian in, 2018, um, they, that point, they were about a year old. took a couple of months just to get everything sorted with, uh, notice periods and the rest of it joined.
And I think, I don't know, I was an employee, like, like 10, something like that, something of that ill kind of joined as a sort of data scientist, software engineer.
I think what was amazing is that when they were pre-product, pre-revenue, um, they had, I don't know, can't remember how much they exactly raised. I think they went straight to series a and did a.
did 10 million and they were three really talented and successful founders and they'd built this like insanely talented team.
mean like intimidatingly talented and I felt like it was you know it was I felt it was hard work at the time you know I had one I think I had three year old and I had twins on the way when my wife did and So was like one of those like super intense periods in life where like everything seemed to be happening all at once.
But that was an amazing place. And like I stayed there for seven years and I watched them grow it from a company that was struggling to find what it wanted to build and was there to help build something that I think really worked.
And now it's like the lead, it created the whole new category of products and. Matt Egan ( .459) Yeah.
.876) You know, I is as far as I'm concerned, I think also, you know, Forrester and Search are concerned. It's like the best dedicated SSPM platform.
So I think it was really cool to see a product go and watch three founders who were super talented go from sort of like, you know, nothing to a product that works. Now they had the experience of doing that twice.
So, you know, I was sort seeing the second time around where they'd learned a lot of lessons. But, they'd tell you when they told me they still made a ton of mistakes. You know, but it was just amazing to watch that.
And so for me, like, that was the thing that I felt like was kind of got me hooked on startups where I was like, I really love to go and see this. Matt Egan (
.469) Well, and also, if we go back to the original point, which was, know, when you're working in intelligence, you've got an idea, it's probably a good idea. Technically, you've aced it. You've been unable to bring that into kind of generating value for the organization.
Like in your current role as a chief product officer, those learnings must be so valuable, right? Because we've all seen, you know, great, perfect technology that doesn't solve a problem. And as a⦠The way you described Obsidian there was amazing. They were pre-products.
They didn't know what they were going to be. They were confident they could figure out how to solve a problem. And you've seen that at close quarters, which must give you great confidence in your current role, I would think. Chris Fuler (
.89) Yeah, I think, you know, honestly, most startups fail because they build a product people don't want. That's like really the truth of it. And I think, you know, like any startup, you're there to build something people want.
And that is actually like, as simple as it's to say, it's incredibly hard thing to do because there's so many things in you that, you know, Matt Egan ( .489) Yeah, exactly.
Matt Egan ( .89) Yep.
.902) prohibit you from actually being able to think sensibly about that question because it's incredibly fearful.
I remember the first month of starting the company, I just felt like gripped with fear of like, oh my goodness, like, you know, I knew it was what I wanted to do, but just the pressure of having raised money and thinking about, you know, sort of like that question and, you know, but I feel like you have to face that head on.
actually did something in the beginning of the company that I actually Matt Egan ( .888) Yeah.
.794) got from listening to a podcast, which was driving home one day listening to this podcast. And I thought that's a great idea. I went and asked every single person in the company at this point, we had seven of us.
And I said, I'd love you just to write for me, like a page. And I want you to tell me like, let's assume we've run out of money. It's two years time. we had two years worth of runway. So it's two years time. We've run out of money.
Why did the company fail? Like you tell me like every, from, from engineers through to like. you CEO, like you tell me what, why did we fail?
Because I think once you accept that like actually the biggest risk is you build something you don't want, or you, you understand what those big risks are, both technically all those sorts of things we're building, talk about a little bit of building an AI cybersecurity platform, but there's like a heap of risks that I didn't understand.
And that then helped us because we go, okay, rather than do the things we know how to do, why don't we try and address the risks that we think are most existential or at least understand them better.
And I think for me, like that approach of being able to say, okay, let's face the likelihood that like most startups fail. think is a really talented team.
We're incredibly lucky to have the, the, team that we have on staff, the other two founders that I work with are literally the most brilliant people I've ever worked with. I couldn't be happier. mean, we've got an amazing crew of advisors.
We've got great, you know, sort of, great, great VC backing. You know, we've got all the things to be successful.
But I think if you take that approach of like, okay, not embracing failure from like a standpoint of like, we're going to fail, but like looking at it say, okay, this is what happens to most startups.
Let's, let's like take a clear eyed look in the, you know, the mirror and really understand what the risks are. De-risk them and, know, just be honest with people about like trying to understand their problems, you know, trying to really get into the weeds of it.
And I think that was the biggest thing that I learned from Obsidian is, you know, you, you know, like not everything is, you you have to, it's like a thing where like, I don't know, maybe it's a stupid analogy, but like a soldier can't operate effectively on the battlefield.
If they're like, you know, terrified every second second, you kind of have to get through that.
And for people that I know that have served in the force, you know, talk about that, talk about like, it is terrifying, but like actually at some point you kind of climatize to that. Chris Fuler (
.902) It's obviously a very different type of risk. Nobody's shooting me with bullets, but, you know, it's like, what are people going to think of me if I'm a failure?
What if, you know, all of those sorts of things, I think, but once you've learned how to deal with those sorts of things, I think then that allows you actually like a wonderful freedom to be able to like, think clearly about the problem and try and like dismiss those mental biases and all those sorts of things.
.237) Chris, I feel like we could talk for hours and I'm worried we are going to talk for hours. So I do need to move us on to the next questions, but this is such a fascinating conversation. You're such an interesting person to talk to.
We are going to move on to a slightly more silly section of our conversation now, which we call quick fire first, because we do want to get to know you behind your professional veneer.
And we do that by using a piece of proprietary technology that I've I built myself, which we call our random question generator. So, Chris, if you wouldn't mind, could you give me a number between one and fourteen? Chris Fuler ( .734) to.
Matt Egan ( .497) Number two.
Now, the answer to this might be there isn't one, but could you tell me something about if you had one, your first pet? Chris Fuler (
.662) My first pet, it was a cat. I think I've had several cats over the years, but this cat was called Thomas, namely named after Thomas the Tank Engine, his namesake. yeah, he was a, I love animals. feel like they're very uncomplicated. Matt Egan ( .14) Mm-hmm.
Matt Egan ( .963) Big fun.
Big fun also. Do you have a cat now or any pets today? Or guess it might be tricky with family life. Chris Fuler (
.41) I think that the challenge that maybe this is something like I didn't know about Southern California is I was talking to a friend of mine the other day and he lives a little bit further out towards the sort of mountains behind Orange County. There's a little canyon.
It's like, keep finding poo in my garden. I asked my neighbor and he's got like a back door camera. It turns out there was a mountain lion in his back garden. So like, there's a mountain lion that just poos in his garden.
So I think I also saw a vulture. Matt Egan ( .803) Yeah, yeah, yeah.
.304) eating a rat the other day. So I'd love a cat, but the idea of having a cat that's just indoors and out here, you occasionally somebody moved into the area, probably from out state.
They will see a cat walking on the fence and they will never see it again. There's just so many things that eats them. So it's just one of those things, birds of prey, coyotes, mountain lions, all those sorts of things.
So I think that's the weird thing growing up in the UK. I'm like the, you know, the fabled adder, which I've never seen. Matt Egan ( .599) some risks.
Yeah. Yeah. Matt Egan ( .087) Yeah.
.382) is like the most lethal thing, whereas over here, they're like genuinely things that are quite lethal. And so, you know, I would like an animal, but we've Matt Egan ( .161) Yeah.
Matt Egan ( .417) Yes.
I⦠I⦠I have⦠I have seen an adder near where I live in Surrey. One in the 20 years I've lived here. Yeah, it's a good point. We have to protect our fish from herons. we couldn't keep chickens because the foxes would get them, but the cat's fine.
So yeah, no, very fair point. I can only apologize for bringing up the inability to keep Chris Fuler ( .28) Hahaha Chris Fuler (
.636) No, no, mean, I'd love to. At some point we probably will. I feel like I've got three little animals in the house right now. And so when they're like, but yeah, no, totally. We're very big animal lovers. My kids would love an animal.
I just said to them, when you're capable of actually contributing to it, we'll totally do it. Matt Egan ( .171) Yeah, testify.
Matt Egan ( .009) Exactly.
Exactly. We have a bearded dragon that was Father's Day gift, I have to feed and clean daily. And my kids are really pestering for a dog at this point. And we will do it. But again, it is like you need to be able to chip in. OK, good.
Give me another number between one and fifteen, actually. Chris Fuler ( .246) Seven.
Matt Egan ( .331) Number seven.
OK, what's the first? You're a very well-traveled person. Where's the first place you would go if time and money were no object? Chris Fuler (
.506) that's a very good question. I've never been to Japan actually. Japan's the, I've got a buddy of mine that's actually probably on a plane right now going out to Japan and that's always a place I want to go. Matt Egan ( .944) Yeah, yeah, definitely.
It's funny that everyone I speak to at the minute seems to be going to or planning or has just been to Japan. And yeah, I'm the same. I've never been there. I've got people who report to me who work there, live there.
And yeah, it just seems like like the sense of it being other and different, like just seems really fascinating and interesting. And yeah, funny enough, we talk about it with the kids, like mainly because my son, who's eight, thinks Pokemon real and roam the streets of Tokyo.
But like, his way, they're also right. Empirical evidence, right? Yeah, yeah. Okay. Amazing. Thank you, Chris, for those answers. We're coming to our final section, which we called first and final thoughts.
And actually, you've covered off on a lot of this, but it might be quite nice just to press it again. Like, what's the first piece of advice you would give to someone who's just starting? Chris Fuler (
.438) I mean, who knows? I've never been, so it could be true. Chris Fuler (
.672) think the first piece of advice I generally give people is that work is harder than you think it is. But you should work harder than you think you should.
Because I feel like there's nothing, you know, like for me, you know, there was a guy, it's just a quick story. When I was the Intel community guy started, and he kind of turned around to me and like after about three weeks said, how do I get promoted?
And I was like, It's actually quite straightforward. You just do a really good job of what's in front of you for the next two, maybe five years, and then you get promoted. And he was like, that seems like a long time. I've got a degree.
And I was like, well, I mean, like, look around you. Everyone does. know, it's like, it's like chock full of them. You know, and he was like, yeah, but there's got to be a faster way.
And I was like, honestly, just, just work really hard, try and do a great job. There's lots of things that you can optimize there. Matt Egan ( .117) So yeah.
.564) But I feel like it's actually like careers are longer than most people think. I think it's something around like a hundred thousand hours that most of us are to work through our lives.
And I feel like you come out of school and everything's been sort of created for you to be like, you know, like very easy to digest. And then suddenly you get into the workplace and work's not like that.
But actually you look at people that are doing, you know, got 20, 30 years of experience. You look at them, they do an amazing job, but it's because they've spent 20, 30 years getting good at it. Matt Egan ( .659) Yeah.
.144) So I think there's an expectation when people first get into the workplace that it's immediately gonna be successful and there will immediately be the striker or the whatever.
But I actually think it's taking that longer view, just being willing to be patient, especially in your 20s, working hard when you've got the flexibility and the freedom to do so. I feel like it's generally the first piece of advice I give people.
It's not always the most popular piece of advice. Matt Egan ( .429) Yeah.
Matt Egan ( .695) Yeah.
.54) No, but it's really good advice. I've cited this on this series before, but I remember appraising somebody who I actually still work with. And he said, want, you know, I want a promotion. And I explained similarly, like what had to be done.
And he went, I want, I want a promotion because I want the office and the pay, but I don't want to do that. And I was kind of like, unfortunately, like, yeah, you need to add value, right? It's a value exchange at the end of the day.
And you need to do more to get more. And I think that's really sound advice, Chris. Appreciate that. And maybe, guess, final question would be like, what's the first project or achievement?
You strike me as quite a, you you're not a boastful guy, but what's the first project or achievement you would want people to know about? What's your masterpiece? Or maybe you're building it right now. Chris Fuler (
.938) I mean, I don't know if I've got a masterpiece. feel like honestly, the challenge with anything right is that like right now I've got a company that, you know, three of us have put together. It's incredibly fun to work on.
I feel like in some senses it's really hard to make any judgment of like the impact you've had. Some of it, like I said, the thing I've worked hardest on outside of, you know, my current job was that incubator. but it wasn't successful.
Whereas actually some things that I did actually just took like two or three weeks and they became incredibly impactful. just, at the time it didn't, I just didn't understand. I think it's really difficult.
I think we always tell stories in retrospect where we go, and it was this and it was this and it was this. And it's just like very neat ordered story. Whereas in reality, like when you're experiencing it, it can be very chaotic and difficult to understand.
For me, I think the thing that⦠Matt Egan ( .863) Yeah.
Matt Egan ( .365) Definitely.
.002) I always think is like, can't control the outcome of things. You just have to enjoy what you're doing and you know, feel like, okay, I'm making good and wise decisions in what I'm doing. You know, for me, it's like, otherwise I just couldn't do what I do.
If I had to have what I'm doing as a success, then it just wouldn't be. Matt Egan ( .556) Yeah.
No, and you wouldn't take risks, right? It's the point you make is such a good one. And it's the problem I have with every business book that's ever been written is the human, the human nature is to impose narrative on chaos.
And so we tell stories if you follow this model, successful. There's always something good to take from those things. Always like I'm really up for learning. But like the idea that if you do X, Y and Z, like success will follow.
It just isn't like life is too chaotic for that. It isn't always the case. But I think I like what you're saying because it's like if you really focus on doing the work and adding value, then more often than not, you will succeed.
But you need to have that freedom to fail to take risks to succeed. Chris Fuler (
.938) I think honestly, most people, this is one of the things that, you know, I think about, which is like, okay, well, I'm going to do everything I can to make this startup a success. You know, I'm going to think through and talk honestly to all the people.
Like when we first started, reached out to literally hundreds of people, talked to them on LinkedIn, just say, Hey, I'm not trying to sell you anything. Just want to talk to you.
And actually a staggering amount of people want to talk to me about the problem because they really care about it.
But I think at the end of the day, it's like a thing where, you know, maybe, maybe in like two or three years, I'll look back and go, okay, yeah, it was obvious.
But at the same time, you know, to, to, quote Max, who's the, you know, who's our lead VC. Um, you know, he just said to us, look, at end of the day, I think you guys like are a talented team.
I think the idea is an incredibly interesting one, but you know, how do you know if something's a rocket ship? You put rocket fuel in it and see if it takes off. Matt Egan ( .797) Yeah.
.18) And I thought that was actually like an incredible, you know, we don't have time to go into Max. Max is another very interesting person, but like he, he's seen thousands of startups succeed and fail.
And obviously he has a lot of metrics that he worked through, underneath it, he's like, okay, I'm looking for all the right constituent parts, but like even someone like Max doesn't know, you know, he's like, Hey, I just have a rocket fuel and see if it works.
And then it's my job to make sure that rocket fuel does work. Or, you know, I do my best to convert that into thrust. I don't know, I'm trying to extend the analogy. Matt Egan ( .795) Yeah.
No, no, no, I like it. I like it. It's a really good note on which to finish, to be honest with you. Just put rocket fuel in it and see if it works.
Because the thing is, even if it doesn't work in going to the moon, if you generate enough thrust, there's some value to it. You'll figure it out kind of thing. Chris, my thanks to you. Thanks, Chris Fuller.
And thanks to all of you for watching or listening to First Person, the show where we meet the most interesting people in IT and learn from them what makes them tick by focusing only on their firsts.
I have been your host, Matt Egan, asking you to enjoy, like and subscribe wherever you find us. And if you're an interesting person in IT, please do let us know. You might be the next first person.
But my final word has to go to Chris Fuller for what has been a fascinating conversation. Thank you so much, Chris, and goodbye. Chris Fuler ( .33) Thanks Matt.