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13Jan2008,08:25AM
#16
JoinDate:Apr2005
Location:Sugbo
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slipthejab
Hark,avagrant!
Quote:
OriginallyPostedbyrubberband
keepinginmindthatItrytostayoutofthepolitics...LetstalkaboutMr.JakeShannon'sarticlethatSliptheJab
broughtup...keepinmindthatJakeShannonhadanagendawhenhewrotethat...hisagendawastoreplaceTonyC
astopdoginthecatchwrestlingworld...itshouldalsobenotedthatMr.Shannoniscurrentlyworkinghardto
destroytheindividualspiritofoldtimecatchandmakesurethattheearmarkoflegitimacyisdefinedbyhimwith
certificationprograms...Ihaveseenhiscertificationprogram...tryingtobenicehere...itdoesnotrepresentthe
catchascatchcanthatIlearnedandhaslittletonobearinginthemodernsubmissionwrestlingworld...
takecare,steve
ahhhhh....theplotthickens.Interesting.Veryinterestingindeed.Definitelyfoodforthought.Thanksforpostingthat.
__________________
Good and evil are not fixed, stable entities but are continually trading places. A good may be transformed into an evil in the next second. And
vice versa.
Haruki Murakami
13Jan2008,07:14PM
rubberband
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#17
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Posts:213
Thanked0Timesin0Posts
thedifference...
OHno!!!slipthejabgottheoldrantversionbeforeIcleaneditup...ohwellIsupposeIstirredthepotafterall...anyway...
Sincethereisaninterestandthebestwaytodestroymythiswithtruth...Iwillsharesomeoftheprinciplesofcatch
wrestlingincomparisonwithJiujitsusothatyouguyscanunderstandthefundamentaldifferencesbetweenthetwoartsand
hopefullygainsomerespectforcatchintheprocess...
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55618&page=2
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Jiujitsu:positionaltheory,gainapositionalrelationshipofcontrollingthehipsandshouldersorholdingtheopponentunder
yourself
catchwrestling:movementtheory,stayinmotiontoavoidopponentsattemptstoattackandstayastepaheadof
opponent
jiujitsu:frompositionisolatealimbandshiftpositiontoapplyleverage
catchwrestling:whileinmotioncontactalimbandfallintosubmissionusingmotiontoapplyleverage
jiujitsu:controlopponentbylimitinghismotionwithclosebodycontactusingthelegs.holdopponent
catchwrestling:controlopponentbylimitinghisnextmotionbygivinghimenoughroomtomoveonlyinonedirectionand
encouraginghismovementwithpainorjointlock.releaseopponent
jiujitsu:positionorientedthinkingaboutsubmissions.submissionsareshorttechniquesappliedfromanestablishedbase
positionthatmaynotchange
catchwrestling:submissionorientedthinkingaboutpositionalrelationship.submissionscanbecomplexstartinginone
positionandendinginanotherrelationshipalltogether.transitionsareoftenfailedsubmissionattemptsattackfromany
relationship.
Jiujitsu:placeweightintrianglethroughandaroundopponenttofloortoholdopponentdown
catchwrestling:focusweightintoasmallpivotpointonopponentandflowaroundopponent'smovement
jiujitsu:transitionalmovementismomontarybetweenpositionsbasedonescapeandcontrol.avoidingthescramble
catchwrestling:transitionalmovementisconstantandavoidspositionsasmuchaspossible.forcingthescramble
Ithinkthisisagoodstarttounderstandingthedifferences...Ihopethishelpsyouguysseetheuniquenatureofcatch
wrestling...andIhopethisrevealstoyouthelackofrealcatchonthevideosoutthere...
takecare,steve
Lasteditedbyrubberband13Jan2008at07:26PM.
13Jan2008,07:45PM
#18
JoinDate:Apr2005
Location:Sugbo
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slipthejab
Hark,avagrant!
manohman...doesthateverneedtobemadeintoasticky!
ThefirstthingthatcametomindwasafterreadingthatwasthewayErikPaulsonmovesincomparisontoaGracie.
Thatbreakdownisgreat.Someseriousfoodforthought.
Bigpropsforpostingthat!!!
__________________
Good and evil are not fixed, stable entities but are continually trading places. A good may be transformed into an evil in the next second. And
vice versa.
Haruki Murakami
13Jan2008,08:44PM
KempoFist
AttentionWhore
#19
JoinDate:Mar2006
Location:NY
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Quote:
OriginallyPostedbyrubberband
OHno!!!slipthejabgottheoldrantversionbeforeIcleaneditup...ohwellIsupposeIstirredthepotafterall...
anyway...
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Sincethereisaninterestandthebestwaytodestroymythiswithtruth...Iwillsharesomeoftheprinciplesof
catchwrestlingincomparisonwithJiujitsusothatyouguyscanunderstandthefundamentaldifferencesbetweenthe
twoartsandhopefullygainsomerespectforcatchintheprocess...
Jiujitsu:positionaltheory,gainapositionalrelationshipofcontrollingthehipsandshouldersorholdingthe
opponentunderyourself
catchwrestling:movementtheory,stayinmotiontoavoidopponentsattemptstoattackandstayastepaheadof
opponent
jiujitsu:frompositionisolatealimbandshiftpositiontoapplyleverage
catchwrestling:whileinmotioncontactalimbandfallintosubmissionusingmotiontoapplyleverage
jiujitsu:controlopponentbylimitinghismotionwithclosebodycontactusingthelegs.holdopponent
catchwrestling:controlopponentbylimitinghisnextmotionbygivinghimenoughroomtomoveonlyinone
directionandencouraginghismovementwithpainorjointlock.releaseopponent
jiujitsu:positionorientedthinkingaboutsubmissions.submissionsareshorttechniquesappliedfromanestablished
basepositionthatmaynotchange
catchwrestling:submissionorientedthinkingaboutpositionalrelationship.submissionscanbecomplexstartingin
onepositionandendinginanotherrelationshipalltogether.transitionsareoftenfailedsubmissionattemptsattack
fromanyrelationship.
Jiujitsu:placeweightintrianglethroughandaroundopponenttofloortoholdopponentdown
catchwrestling:focusweightintoasmallpivotpointonopponentandflowaroundopponent'smovement
jiujitsu:transitionalmovementismomontarybetweenpositionsbasedonescapeandcontrol.avoidingthe
scramble
catchwrestling:transitionalmovementisconstantandavoidspositionsasmuchaspossible.forcingthescramble
Ithinkthisisagoodstarttounderstandingthedifferences...Ihopethishelpsyouguysseetheuniquenatureof
catchwrestling...andIhopethisrevealstoyouthelackofrealcatchonthevideosoutthere...
takecare,steve
Wow...atleastfrommystandpointIcanseethetheorypresentedhere,butIamnotnearlyqualifiedenoughtojudgethe
differencesoreffectivenessagainstoneanother.ButIdounderstandthedifferenceinmentalityinwhereBJJusessolid
position,andCatchstaysinconstantmotionandattack.Wishtherewassomeonecrediblearoundhere...gottalookIguess.
__________________
Knowingisnotenough,youmustapply...
...Willingisnotenoughyoumustdo~BruceLee
13Jan2008,09:35PM
rubberband
ValuedMember
#20
JoinDate:Jun2005
Posts:213
Thanked0Timesin0Posts
ErikPaulsonisaverygoodexample.
EddieBravoalsousessomecatchmovementsinhissystem.twister,camelclutch,whathecallsjiuclaw....andhe
transitionswellusinglimbsinsteadofclassicalpositions...BillyWicksactuallycontactedMr.Bravoayearagototellhim
thathewasusingcatchwrestlingtechniquesandtoseeifhewantedtolearnmore...Mr.Bravomadeajokeoutofitand
wasveryrude...
takecare,steve
Lasteditedbyrubberband13Jan2008at09:42PM.
13Jan2008,09:40PM
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#21
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rubberband
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IncomparisontoJiujitsu...theideaisthatifIcanstayinmotionIavoidyourpositionandtherforethemajorityofyour
practicetimeisoutthewindowandyoucan'tsubmitme...soIkeepyououtofyourcomfortzone...ifyoucatchmeina
positionthenImustescapequicklybeforeyouestablishabaseandIthenattackasIescapeand/orstayinmotion...of
courseifIgetcaughtgoodandcan'tescapeyourpositionthenyoumightjustgetme...unlessIescapewhileyouare
readjustingyourbodytogainleverageonme...thenIregainmyfreedomtoattackyou...
steve
13Jan2008,10:18PM
callsignfuzzy
Isnotanumber!
#22
JoinDate:May2006
Location:Kennesaw,GA
Age:35
Posts:2,152
Thanked607Timesin285Posts
Quote:
OriginallyPostedbyrubberband
Jiujitsu:positionaltheory,gainapositionalrelationshipofcontrollingthehipsandshouldersorholdingthe
opponentunderyourself
catchwrestling:movementtheory,stayinmotiontoavoidopponentsattemptstoattackandstayastepaheadof
opponent
jiujitsu:frompositionisolatealimbandshiftpositiontoapplyleverage
catchwrestling:whileinmotioncontactalimbandfallintosubmissionusingmotiontoapplyleverage
jiujitsu:controlopponentbylimitinghismotionwithclosebodycontactusingthelegs.holdopponent
catchwrestling:controlopponentbylimitinghisnextmotionbygivinghimenoughroomtomoveonlyinone
directionandencouraginghismovementwithpainorjointlock.releaseopponent
jiujitsu:positionorientedthinkingaboutsubmissions.submissionsareshorttechniquesappliedfromanestablished
basepositionthatmaynotchange
catchwrestling:submissionorientedthinkingaboutpositionalrelationship.submissionscanbecomplexstartingin
onepositionandendinginanotherrelationshipalltogether.transitionsareoftenfailedsubmissionattemptsattack
fromanyrelationship.
Jiujitsu:placeweightintrianglethroughandaroundopponenttofloortoholdopponentdown
catchwrestling:focusweightintoasmallpivotpointonopponentandflowaroundopponent'smovement
jiujitsu:transitionalmovementismomontarybetweenpositionsbasedonescapeandcontrol.avoidingthe
scramble
catchwrestling:transitionalmovementisconstantandavoidspositionsasmuchaspossible.forcingthescramble
Thisisexcellent.
WickslivesinNC,right?That'snottoofarfromwhereIlive.Couldyahookabrothaup?
It'shardtoavoidthepoliticsofthewholething.IstillthinkTony'sLAOHwasprettydecent,andFurey'sstuff,overpriced
thoughitis,showshowtomodifyamaturewrestlingmovesintosubs.JakeShannonisdefinitelytryingtomakemoneyoffof
thewholething,too,buthisreprintsandhisworkingtogetherwithbotholdtimewrestlersandmodernwrestlersand
fightersisstartingtobringCatchtotheforefrontagain.Ibelievethislastpartisinvaluable'causealltheoldtimehookers,
sadtosay,probablyaren'tgoingtobearoundtenyearsfromnow.
Hatmakerissortofadifferentbagofworms.Ihavetoadmitaprejudice'causeItrainwithhimallthetimeandactually
considerhimagoodfriend.I'dliketonotethathecallsthegrapplingheteaches"allinwrestling"or"Westernscientific
wrestling"Idon'tthinkhe'susedtheterm"catchascatchcan"inanyofhisproducts,otherthanasoneofseveralsources
uponwhichhedraws.He'salsosomethingofanhistorian.Thatsaid,hehasalwaysbeenvagueaboutwherehelearnedhis
techniques.Ijustknowtheguy'sagreatathlete,coach,andtechnician.
Forwhatit'sworth,inhisopeningof"BeyondBrazilianJiujitsu"hemakessimilarremarksaboutpossitionvs.scramble.He
termsit"pinning"(BJJpossitionalapproach)and"riding"(wrestlingapproach).Healsoemphasizestakingthetoppossition
wheneverpossibleinhismaterial.
There'sonementionofCACConhiswebsite:
Quote:
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WelearnfromallMediterraneanbasinwrestlingstyles,Russianfolkwrestling,Sambo,Pankratium,andofcourse
EnglishAllInwrestlingandCatchasCatchCan.
__________________
NorthwestGAScholarlyPunchingConsortium:
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14Jan2008,03:21AM
#23
Atharel
JoinDate:Aug2005
Posts:845
Thanked9Timesin5Posts
Errant
Anotherquestionforyourubberband:
Doyouknowwhymostcatchpeopleseemleerytocompeteinnogi/openrulesgrapplingcompetitions?
__________________
flowwiththego
14Jan2008,03:24AM
#24
KempoFist
AttentionWhore
JoinDate:Mar2006
Location:NY
Age:31
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Thanked38Timesin14Posts
Quote:
OriginallyPostedbyAtharel
Anotherquestionforyourubberband:
Doyouknowwhymostcatchpeopleseemleerytocompeteinnogi/openrulesgrapplingcompetitions?
Causetheylose?
*ducks*
__________________
Knowingisnotenough,youmustapply...
...Willingisnotenoughyoumustdo~BruceLee
14Jan2008,04:53AM
rubberband
ValuedMember
#25
JoinDate:Jun2005
Posts:213
Thanked0Timesin0Posts
Greatquestion...
basicallyNoGitournamentsarebasedaroundtheBjjmodelofgrappling...pointsareawardedforpositions...catch
wrestlersstayinmotionandaftergettingpointsfortakedowndon'tusuallygetmanymore...
openrulestendstomean"opentoanythingwithintheBjjparadigm"
Bjjplayershaveseveraladvantagesinnogitournamentsinthattheirartandtrainingisbasedaroundthatexacttypeof
fightingunderthoseexactrules...catchwrestlersfindthatatleast2/3oftheirarsenalisillegalandoftenfindoutthateven
moretechniquesareillegalaftertheysubmittheiropponentandtherefereedecidesthatthetechniquewasillegal...
whichisanotherissue...refereestendtounderstandBjjandthinkintheBjjway...catchwrestlingisconsideredasub
standardformofgrapplingwithpotentiallydangeroustechniquesassociatedwithit...manyrefereesseemtothinkthatcatch
wrestlersareforthemostpartpoorlytrainedaggressivebruteswhopracticeamadeupcobbledtogethermishmashof
hurtingpeoplebasedonsuplexthrows,neckbreaking,gouging,leglocks,andreallybadnogiBjj...sosomerefereestend
tomakequestionablecallsbasedaroundsafetythatfavorthebjjplayerornegativelyeffectthewrestler...
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Ishouldn'tforgettoincludetheprejudiceofbjjfightersagainstcatchwrestlers...nothinglikebeinginaroomofpeoplewho
thinkyouareanidiotforpracticingasubstandardartwhenyoucouldbedoingbjj...itisfunnythoughthatthehigher
rankedBjjpeoplewillsneakoffandbegyouforleglockinfoinabackroomthenturnaroundandlaughatyouwhenthey
arewiththeirteams...
anotherfactoristhattheresimplyarenotthatmanyqualifiedshootersaroundtogototournaments...manyofushavebeen
thereanddonethatwhenwewerelearninghaveastrongdistasteforit...thewrestlerswhotendtogototournamentsare
newtocatchwrestlinganddon'thavetheexperiencetoknowtheyaretheunderdogfromthestart...theyusuallygetout
pointedby"positonandcuddle"fightersortheirsubmissionwinsarerelegatedtotheuseofsomeofthatsubstandardbjj...
thoseofuswhohavebeendownthatroadofbadcalls,legitimatesubmissionsthatwereillegalafterthetap,andfighting
withmostofourartandpracticedtechniqueillegal...usuallydiscourageothersfromfightinginNogitournamentsbecause
theydonotdemonstrateanythingpositiveaboutcatchwrestling...theydemonstrateBjjandsincecatchwrestlingisvery
differentthanBjj...catchwrestlings1/3orlessoflegaltechniquesandwhatlookstooutsidersasscaredandaimless
floppingarounddoesn'tworkwellunderBjjrules...andthecatchwrestlerswhotrytobendtotherulesandmaketheir
personalexpressionofcatchwrestlingmorefavorablefornogigrapplingendupdevelopingasystemofsubstandardbjj...
itisaviciouscycle...thatonlyfurtherfuelsthemisunderstandinganddisrespectthatcatchwrestlingsuffers...by
substantiatingthemythsofthelargerbjjcommunity...
takecare,steve
14Jan2008,05:01AM
rubberband
ValuedMember
#26
JoinDate:Jun2005
Posts:213
Thanked0Timesin0Posts
IthinkKempofistiscorrect...attendingnogitournamentscausescatchwrestlingasawholetolose...2/3ofthetechniques
arelost...credibilityislostduetoprejudiceandthestructureofthetournamentsthemselves...
yes...Imyselfhavelostinthesetournamentstobackmountchokeandfrontchoke...Ievenputonajacketonceandgot
armbarredbecauseIwasaffraidofthecollarchoke...IwonsometoobutIlearnedmorefrommyloses...
maybecatchwrestlingisaboutlosing...likewhenIwrestlenowmyopponentslosetrackofwhereIamandthenwakeupa
fewminuteslaterwithlosttime...
loseonbrothers...steve
14Jan2008,05:22AM
KempoFist
AttentionWhore
#27
JoinDate:Mar2006
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I'mwithyaonthedifferenceinmentalitywhilerolling,butI'mhavingahardtimebelievingthiswhole"2/3'sofour
techniquesareillegal"thing.Whatthehellkindasubmissionsareyoudoingthatareillegal?Jammingthethumbintothe
windpipetypestuff?Or"lemon"typeattemptsatarmbarsfromunorthodoxpositionandsuchthateitherhavethehigh
opportunitytofail,ortheslimchancethatitwillworkbutwillendupbreakingthearmbecausethere'snotimetotap?
__________________
Knowingisnotenough,youmustapply...
...Willingisnotenoughyoumustdo~BruceLee
14Jan2008,05:57PM
doc97
ValuedMember
#28
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Location:KalmazooMI
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Wow!Thishasbeenanexcellentpost.Ihaveoftenwonderedaboutcatchascatchcan.Veryinformative,thankstoallthose
whohaveposted!
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14Jan2008,06:23PM
#29
JoinDate:Apr2005
Location:Sugbo
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slipthejab
Hark,avagrant!
Yeahthisthreadisreallystartingtogetinteresting.
__________________
Good and evil are not fixed, stable entities but are continually trading places. A good may be transformed into an evil in the next second. And
vice versa.
Haruki Murakami
14Jan2008,09:37PM
#30
JoinDate:Jun2005
Location:Huntsville,AL
Age:32
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Yohan
IntheSpiritofYohan
Quote:
OriginallyPostedbyrubberband
keepinginmindthatItrytostayoutofthepolitics...LetstalkaboutMr.JakeShannon'sarticlethatSliptheJab
broughtup...keepinmindthatJakeShannonwrotethatsohecouldreplaceTonyCastopdoginthecatchwrestling
world...Mr.ShannonmakesmoneyoffofcatchwrestlingjustlikeTonyCandMattFurey...
takecare,steve
WhileIthinkthatJakeShannon'sarticleisverytelling,Ithinkthatthemostinterestingpartofthearticleistheletterfrom
KarlGotch.Whilethereisnowaytototallyprovethattheletterisauthentic,Idon'tdoubttheclaimthatitis.IfKarlGotch
discreditsMattFureyinthewayhedid,I'mwillingtotakehiswordforit.
EventhoughJake'spurposeinwritingthatletterwastouseKarlGotch'slettertodiscreditTonyC.,ifyoureadthearticle
andtheletter,you'llrealizethatKarlisonlytalkingaboutMattFurey,andnotTonyC..Assuch,I'llwaittillthefatlady
singsbeforeImakeanyjudgmentsaboutTonyC.'scredibility,thoughitdoesseemshakyatbest.
AsFirequanpostedonanotherthread:Thelongerarumorfloatsaround,themorelikelyitistobetrue(orsomethinglike
that).
__________________
Quote:
OriginallyPostedbyJohnR.Gambit
Ibelieveit'suptohimwhetherornothewantstolistentoyourWildBillHickokmethodsforselfdefense,or
whetherhewantstochooseamoremoderateapproach.
Quote:
OriginallyPostedbymelbgoju
eatsaltybananas.
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