Problem in inputing material in caesar II.
Ankur
Member
Registered: 02/21/12
Posts: 20
Loc: New Delhi,
India.
Good morning my dear friends,
I have to do the analysis for the condenser supply and return lines. My pipe
material is A36. This material is not listed in the Caesar II material list.
Can I know what should I do? Which equivalent material I should consider
in place of A36?
Waiting for your response.
Have a nice day ahead.
Regards,
Ankur.
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Re: Problem in inputing material in caesar II. [Re: Ankur]
#47367 - 02/22/12 09:00 PM
Ankur
Member
Registered: 02/21/12
Posts: 20
Loc: New Delhi,
India.
Excuse me all the members,
I need your suggestion.
Regards,
Ankur.
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Re: Problem in inputing material in caesar II. [Re: Ankur]
#47373 - 02/23/12 02:44 AM
mariantrifan
This are the equivalent material for A36:
JIS G3101-SS400
ASTM A283 Grade D
EN S275/ BS 43A
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Marian
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#47387 - 02/23/12 09:27 PM
Ankur
Re: Problem in inputing material in caesar II. [Re: Ankur]
Thank u marian, but in Caesar II which material I will take. The name
which u have given is not in the material list in caesar II.
Member
Kindly suggest.
Registered: 02/21/12
Posts: 20
Regards,
Loc: New Delhi,
India.
Ankur.
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Re: Problem in inputing material in caesar II. [Re: Ankur]
#47392 - 02/24/12 02:34 AM
mariantrifan
not all material available on the market are on the data base, you can
add your material in the data base, you just need to type the correct
material property
for this you need to find the temp, exp coff, allow stress, elastic
modulus for this particular material
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#47464 - 02/28/12 09:42 PM
Re: Problem in inputing material in caesar II. [Re: Ankur]
Ankur
Thank you Marian.
Member
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Ankur.
Registered: 02/21/12
Posts: 20
Loc: New Delhi,
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#47553 - 03/05/12 12:33 AM
Ankur
Re: Problem in inputing material in caesar II. [Re: Ankur]
Good morning Marian,
Can you tell me where I will input the exp coff valve in caesar.
Member
Registered: 02/21/12
Posts: 20
Loc: New Delhi,
India.
Regards,
Ankur
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#47559 - 03/05/12 03:31 AM
Ankur
Re: Problem in inputing material in caesar II. [Re: Ankur]
sorry its value not valve.
Can any tell the answer.
Member
Regards,
Registered: 02/21/12
Posts: 20
Loc: New Delhi,
India.
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#47572 - 03/05/12 11:17 AM
Richard
Ay
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Registered: 12/13/99
Posts: 5556
Loc: Houston, Texas,
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Re: Problem in inputing material in caesar II. [Re: Ankur]
If you want to add this material to the material database, you can use
"\Tools\Material Database Editor". Please read the documentation on this
tool before you use it (at a minimum you will need two entries for your
material: one for "All Codes", and one for your specific Code of interest).
If you don't want to add this material to the material database, then you
must specify all of the material properties in the piping input. The
expansion coefficient (in units of length/length) can be entered in the
Temperature field (see the Help text on this). Note the units are
lenght/length, you need to take care of "delta T".
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#47586 - 03/06/12 05:43 AM
Re: Problem in inputing material in caesar II. [Re: Ankur]
Ankur
Member
Registered: 02/21/12
Posts: 20
Loc: New Delhi,
India.
Thank you Richard.
I 0don't want to add this material to the material database, so I will input all
the material properties. I input all the properties but for inputting the
expansion coefficient, the caesar is not taking means I am not able to input
the expansion coefficient. While going through the Help I found that if I get
the expansion coefficient .009475 in./in then this valve would be entered
into the appropriate Temperature field.
So I didnt get in which appropriate Temperature field its saying.
There are total 9 operating condition, so in which temperature I will input
the expansion coefficient.In 1st temperature I input the design temperature.
Please suggest.
Thank you.
Regrads.
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#47600 - 03/06/12 09:24 PM
Re: Problem in inputing material in caesar II. [Re: Ankur]
Richard
Ay
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Posts: 5556
Loc: Houston, Texas,
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Then put it in T2, and include an OPE load case that uses T2.
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#47604 - 03/06/12 09:37 PM
Ankur
Re: Problem in inputing material in caesar II. [Re: Ankur]
Ok thank you Richard.
Regards,
Member
Registered: 02/21/12
Posts: 20
Loc: New Delhi,
India.
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#47606 - 03/06/12 10:26 PM
Ankur
Member
Registered: 02/21/12
Posts: 20
Loc: New Delhi,
India.
Re: Problem in inputing material in caesar II. [Re: Ankur]
Richard,
As you told to input my expansion coefficient .009475 in./in in T2. The
same error is showing in caesar II that is
"Temperature Fields on element 10 to 20 Expansion Coefficient for USER
DEFINED materials must be set by the user".
Kindly suggest.
Regrads.
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#47615 - 03/07/12 08:28 PM
Richard
Ay
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Re: Problem in inputing material in caesar II. [Re: Ankur]
You can't put the design temperature, or any other temperature for that
matter, in any of the Tx fields for the USER DEFINED material (material
#21). The reason is that this is a completely user defined material, there is
no information for CAESAR II to look up, like what the expansion
coefficient is for a specified temperature. So for any temperature you want
to analyze (design, operating 1, operating 2, etc), you have to input the
corresponding expansion coefficient.
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Richard Ay
Intergraph CAS
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#47663 - 03/09/12 03:35 AM
Ankur
Re: Problem in inputing material in caesar II. [Re: Ankur]
Thank you very much Richard, now its not showing any error.
Thanks and regards.
Member
Registered: 02/21/12
Posts: 20
Loc: New Delhi,
India.
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#47689 - 03/12/12 02:25 AM
Ankur
Member
Registered: 02/21/12
Posts: 20
Loc: New Delhi,
India.
Re: Problem in inputing material in caesar II. [Re: Ankur]
Good morning all the members,
I got the expansion coefficient 6.5 E-6 in/in/F (0.0000065 in/in/F)and this
valve I have to input in T1.
Now the problem comes, My T1 unit is degree C and the valve of
expansion coefficient is in Fahrenheit (F).
So shall I have to input the expansion coefficient 6.5 E-6 in/in/F
(0.0000065 in/in/F) directly without changing the unit or else I have to
change the unit from Fahrenheit to Celsius?
After converting the expansion coefficient 6.5 E-6 in/in/F (0.0000065
in/in/F) into celsius I am getting -17.78 degree C.
Kindly suggest.
Regards,
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#47715 - 03/12/12 10:58 AM
Richard
Ay
Member
Registered: 12/13/99
Posts: 5556
Re: Problem in inputing material in caesar II. [Re: Ankur]
You need to convert that number to mm/mm/C, then you need to muliply
by the delta Temperature in degress C. (Note in my post of March 5th, I
said the units should be "length/length", not "length/length/deg".)
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Richard Ay
Loc: Houston, Texas,
USA
Intergraph CAS
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Re: Problem in inputing material in caesar II. [Re: Ankur]
#47768 - 03/14/12 06:42 AM
Ankur
Member
Registered: 02/21/12
Posts: 20
Loc: New Delhi,
India.
Thank you very much Richard. Once i will finished I will let you know.
Thank you for all your support.
Regards,
Ankur.
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#48014 - 03/27/12 12:23 PM
Re: Problem in inputing material in caesar II. [Re: Ankur]
chakkravarthy
HI Good evening friends:,
Member
Same issue coming for me also.
When i Entered my design Temp and operating Temperature, I got
the error while executing the error checking by saying Temp
coefficent.
Registered: 10/08/11
Posts: 15
Loc: Kuwait
So i studied and i got the Temp coefficent for my Material , then i
entered that .0014.in temp box. But whether this is suffient , where i
will enter my design and operating temperatures. pls guide me.
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#48163 - 04/04/12 12:13 AM
Peterson
Member
Registered: 02/04/11
Posts: 58
Loc: India
Re: Problem in inputing material in caesar II. [Re: Ankur]
Richard,
I have question regarding your post on 03/12/12 at 10:58 AM in the above
matter.
My question is shall we need to Multiply by the delta Temperature in
degress C to mm/mm/C? If we will Multiply then the unit will become C
square.
Kindly know the members opinion along with Richard too.
Thanks and regards,
Peter.
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#48165 - 04/04/12 01:06 AM
Ankur
Member
Registered: 02/21/12
Posts: 20
Loc: New Delhi,
India.
Re: Problem in inputing material in caesar II. [Re: Ankur]
Good morning all the members,
Richard, I went through the Help Text and found that they havent
mentioned about delta T. But if you go through your post dated on 03/05/12
11:17 AM and your last line of second paragraph you have mentioned about
delta T.
I am confused. Please need your support Richard.
If you go to help text and see the example, it showed as mentioned below:
"For example, if the user wanted to enter the thermal expansion coefficient
equivalent to 11.37in./100ft., the calculation would be:
11.37in./100ft. * 1 ft./ 12in. = .009475 in./in.
This would be entered into the appropriate Temperature field."
My value is coming 0.3in/100ft and after converting into length/length its
coming 0.00025.
So this value 0.00025 I will entered in the temp field.
Kindly suggest.
Response awaited from all the members.
Regards,
Ankur.
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#48170 - 04/04/12 06:14 AM
Richard
Ay
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Posts: 5556
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Re: Problem in inputing material in caesar II. [Re: Ankur]
Yes, you are correct. The units of the coefficient entered in the temperature
fields of the Piping Input dialog must be "length/length".
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Richard Ay
Intergraph CAS
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#48185 - 04/04/12 10:55 PM
Re: Problem in inputing material in caesar II. [Re: Ankur]
Ankur
Thank you Richard.
Member
Regards,
Ankur.
Registered: 02/21/12
Posts: 20
Loc: New Delhi,
India.
MATERIAL DATA BASE.
Raam____
Member
Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 33
Loc: .....
Dear Sir,
I had created a new material in Caesar II material database. Lately I have
changed CAESAR II older Version to latest Version. When I open that
particular (Material Property changed model) file a Material warning 4
message appears, saying that Material is not in the database. Keep the
existing material properties.
My query: Is it possible to view the old entered material property which
is not in the material database (CAESAR II LATEST VER.).
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#39557 - 12/14/10 06:14 AM
Richard
Ay
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Posts: 5556
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Re: MATERIAL DATA BASE. [Re: Raam____]
User created or modified materials are stored in the file "UMAT1.BIN",
located in the \system directory. Simply copy this file from the \system
directory of the older version to the \system directory of the newer version.
You'll then have access to the material(s) you added.
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#39561 - 12/14/10 08:02 AM
Raam____
Member
Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 33
Loc: .....
Re: MATERIAL DATA BASE. [Re: Richard Ay]
Dear Sir,
Thank you very much for quick reply but i have uninstalled the older
version and i deleted everything. Sir, Is there any other way to read the
material property at this position. CAESAR II asks to keep the existing
material property 'yes keep' or u 'no update', when i click 'yes keep' i
could use the edited material. So i guess the material property might
stored somewhere if yes kindly help me.
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#39564 - 12/14/10 12:20 PM
Richard
Ay
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Posts: 5556
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Re: MATERIAL DATA BASE. [Re: Raam____]
The "input echo" will show the material data, but only for the temperatures
you defined when the job was created. So for example, if your T1 is 300,
then you have an expansion coefficient at 300 and an allowable stress at
300 - but you don't have the whole table. That table is (was) maintained in
UMAT1.BIN, not in the input file.
The warning message simply means that the data in the input file doesn't
match the data in the material database. If you "keep" the existing data, then
the data defined in the input is used. If you select "update", the data from
the "current" material database is obtained and replaces what is in the input
file.
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Intergraph CAS
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#42325 - 04/11/11 01:35 AM
Nald
Re: MATERIAL DATA BASE. [Re: Richard Ay]
Member
This post seems related to what I encountered. If I chose "keep", as you
said that the data defined in the input is used, does it mean caesar II used
that material even though it does not exist in the new UMAT1.BIN?
Registered: 02/20/09
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Loc: Malaysia
Edited by Nald (04/11/11 02:40 AM)
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#42332 - 04/11/11 07:36 AM
Richard
Ay
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Re: MATERIAL DATA BASE. [Re: Nald]
Yes, because the data is already defined in the "input".
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#42538 - 04/20/11 09:41 AM
sillyman
Re: MATERIAL DATA BASE. [Re: Raam____]
Dear Mr. Richard Ay,
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Registered: 06/06/09
Posts: 126
Loc: Australia
I am facing the problem with the material data - (393)B423 N08825. I used
the following temperature for my load cases T1=35 deg C, T2 = 100 deg C
and T3 = -21 deg C.
When i select the above mentioned material, the hot allowable stress for
SH3 is changing to zero and the errors are displayed stating that "On
element 130 to 140 the temperature for Case-1/case-2 and case-3 is outside
the allowed range for this material"
Why this kind of error comes when i select the default material database.
For additional details refer attached pictures
Please clarify.
Attachments
Caesar Error Mtl database.pdf (169 downloads)
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#42545 - 04/20/11 12:02 PM
Richard
Ay
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Re: MATERIAL DATA BASE. [Re: sillyman]
Which piping code are you running to? Allowables for this material are in
the database for ONLY B31.1 and B31.3. If you select another Code,
physical properties are there but not allowables - hence the message.
If you're running to B31.3, there is no expansion coefficient below
21.111C, so your -21C temperature would generate an error. If you have
this data, you can update the database.
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#42548 - 04/20/11 02:14 PM
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Re: MATERIAL DATA BASE. [Re: Richard Ay]
sillyman
Dear Mr.Richard,
Member
I am using ASME B31.3 code, the error message is also shown for the
temperature of 35 deg C and 100 deg C. Also why the expansion coefficient
is not available in Caesar-II material database for that material at temp
below 21 deg C...
Registered: 06/06/09
Posts: 126
Loc: Australia
Please clarify....
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#42551 - 04/20/11 07:28 PM
Richard
Ay
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Re: MATERIAL DATA BASE. [Re: sillyman]
Send the job in to Techsupport so we can look at it.
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#42569 - 04/21/11 07:32 AM
Re: MATERIAL DATA BASE. [Re: Richard Ay]
________
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http://65.57.255.42/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?
ubb=showflat&Main=9160&Number=41561#Post41561
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This might be useful for you.
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...
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#45044 - 10/02/11 05:54 AM
Shahid
Rafiq
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Registered: 05/17/06
Posts: 113
Loc: Jubail KSA
Re: MATERIAL DATA BASE. [Re: Raam____]
@Raam,
It is the same problem that I am facing now. I entered the properties of a
new material in the material database. Developed a CAESAR II model
with this material in it. Then due to a problem I had to uninstall and
reinstall CAESAR II. Now I need the properties of that material. Unable to
do so.
Raam,
Did you get the answer?
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#45046 - 10/02/11 07:10 AM
danb
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Re: MATERIAL DATA BASE. [Re: Raam____]
Recreate the material or choose "keep" when you are asked. Always keep a
copy of Umat1.bin in the calculation folder.
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#45047 - 10/02/11 07:33 AM
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Re: MATERIAL DATA BASE. [Re: Raam____]
Raam____
No, i could not view the complete material properties which i had entered
before the software version change.
Member
Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 33
Loc: .....
but as like dan said, i kept the existing material properties throughout the
analysis. Please make some copies of that file before you start doing the
analysis. Suppose without knowingly, if you click the update icon, you
can retrieve the old data from another copy.
Also Make a "Read Me" note inside the folder, "not to update the
material database", this will help you in future.
Raam . . .
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#45049 - 10/02/11 12:09 PM
Richard
Ay
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Re: MATERIAL DATA BASE. [Re: Shahid Rafiq]
Umat1.bin (or Umat1.umd as of 5.30) is not uninstalled, it should still be
there in the \system directory - unless you manually deleted that directory.
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#45084 - 10/05/11 11:37 AM
Shahid
Re: MATERIAL DATA BASE. [Re: Raam____]
Thanks Raam, Danb, Richard,
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Rafiq
Member
I shall check this.
Edited by Shahid Rafiq (10/05/11 11:38 AM)
Registered: 05/17/06
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Material Properties and expansion coefficient
Shabeer
Member
Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 264
Loc: india
Dear all,
In stress analysis, we are analysis two different material like A321 TP 316L
to A790 S31803, In the case, we have an error like The temperature from
case 1, 2, 3 is outside the allowed range for this material.
Expansion Coefficient shown only for A312 TP 316L, change material to
A790 S31803 in that Expansion coefficient not shown, how solve the error.
please clarify.
find the attachment for reference.
Attachments
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#41545 - 03/09/11 01:02 AM
danb
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Posts: 1174
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Re: Material Properties and expansion coefficient [Re: Shabeer]
This is because you have installation temperature lower than 21.11422 and
for these temperatures you do not have any data in the material database. So
Caesar can not calculate anything.
Please see attached.
Regards,
Attachments
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#41561 - 03/10/11 01:14 AM
________
Re: Material Properties and expansion coefficient [Re: danb]
http://65.57.255.42/ubbthreads/ubbthread...h=true#Post6203
http://65.57.255.42/ubbthreads/ubbthread...=true#Post23079
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Posts: 17
Loc: World
This might be useful for you.
Duplex material A790 S31803 ( -46 to +120)
Dnyanesh
Member
Registered: 04/08/02
In one of jobs I am dealing with Duplex material A790 S31803. Design
Temperatures T1 : 120 Deg.C, T2 : -46 Deg. C.
As per B31.3, this material can be used from -51 Deg.C to +315 Deg.C.
In the Caesar Library table for this material (338)A790 S31803, it is not
updated for lower than 21.11 deg. So I am getting error 60E.
To update the table for complete range where can I find the values of
Posts: 21
Loc: India/Germany
expansion coefficient, allowable stress, and elastic modulus.
Thanks in advance.
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#6202 - 08/04/06 07:54 AM
Richard
Ay
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Registered: 12/13/99
Posts: 5556
Loc: Houston, Texas,
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Re: Duplex material A790 S31803 ( -46 to +120)
Since this particular issue has been popular among users, we have spent
quite some time searching for this data. This URL is the only source we
have found for the expansion coefficient for S31803. Note that the low end
of the temperature scale is ambient, so while we did incorporate this
information into the CAESAR II Material DataBase, you can't use it below
ambient - this is why you're getting error 60E.
The solution here is for you to contact whomever you are going to purchase
your pipe from, and ask them for the material properties. (Hopefully they
can provide this information to you in a formal brochure or publication. If
you then forward this information to COADE, we will update the
Database.)
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#6203 - 08/07/06 05:47 AM
Dnyanesh
Member
Registered: 04/08/02
Posts: 21
Loc: India/Germany
Re: Duplex material A790 S31803 ( -46 to +120)
Hello Richard,
Another problem I am facing with (338)A790 S31803 from library is,
even for ambient temperature I am getting error 60E. Where as, in Spread
sheet it properly shows allowables for the amb. temperature.
When I did same exersise for Version4.4, it shows warning 121E, about
hot allowables not specified.
Is it due to change in Library for Ver.5? How to deal with it while working
in Vesion5?
I am writing it on forum to check, if anybody experiencing the same
problem? I am using Ver.5.
Please address it, if you need my soft file, I will send it to you.
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#6204 - 08/07/06 08:13 AM
Richard
Ay
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Posts: 5556
Loc: Houston, Texas,
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Re: Duplex material A790 S31803 ( -46 to +120)
Make sure that none of your "element temperatures" and your ambient
temperature are below 70 deg F. Note that if you're working in metric, 70
degF converts to 21.111111111 degC, so if you defined ambient as 21 degC,
that's your problem.
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#9687 - 02/07/07 09:25 AM
stressuk
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Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 1
Loc: UK
Re: Duplex material A790 S31803 ( -46 to +120) [Re: Richard Ay]
has there been any update to the issue? i am having the same problem. Has
there been values given for temperatures lower than the ambient?
Thanks in advance
Richard
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#9688 - 02/07/07 10:21 AM
Re: Duplex material A790 S31803 ( -46 to +120) [Re: stressuk]
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Richard
Ay
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Not that I'm aware of.
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#9690 - 02/07/07 10:59 AM
NozzleTwister
Re: Duplex material A790 S31803 ( -46 to +120) [Re: Richard Ay]
This thread is very timely. I too am starting a project where we have
a lot of duplex SS pipe and we have temperatures below the normal
ambient of 21.111 deg C. (70 deg. F). Our pipe code is B31.3
Member
Registered: 12/15/99
Posts: 120
Loc: Houston, Texas U.S.A.
Our installation temperature and Ambient for the job is 4 deg. C. and
we have minimum temperatures down to -7 deg. C.
Our pipng materails for the job are:
Pipe => A790 S31803 Smls & A928 S31803 CL5
Welding Fittings => A815 S31803
I read the posts above, I'm just adding my name to the list of those
needing lower temperatures capabilities for this materail in Caesar II.
Thanks,
_________________________
NozzleTwister
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#9695 - 02/07/07 08:24 PM
MPB
Re: Duplex material A790 S31803 ( -46 to +120) [Re: NozzleTwister]
There is expansion data on several manufacturers' websites, eg. Allegheny
Ludlum, Sandvik, Sandmeyer. Other sources include TEMA and ASME
Section II Table TE-1 (Group 2 alloys). These latter two sources show
somewhat lower expansions than the manufacturers.
Member
Registered: 09/08/06
Posts: 49
Loc: Perth
None that I have seen have sub-zero (degC) temperatures. However it is
worth remembering that duplex is a mixture of austenitic and ferritic steel
grains. The available expansion data is between that of austenitic and
carbon steel, therefore it is a reasonable assumption that its lower
temperature coefficients will follow a similar behaviour and an educated
estimate can be made on this basis.
One thing that is rarely mentioned is that materials specs usually permit the
percentage of ferrite to vary between 25% and 55 or 60%. Therefore I think
it best to err on the higher side when estimating expansion so I use a
custom material definition using the upper end of the range of
manufacturers data.
regards
Martin
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#9705 - 02/08/07 03:08 AM
Jouko
Member
Registered: 01/11/04
Posts: 360
Re: Duplex material A790 S31803 ( -46 to +120) [Re: MPB]
If there are no values then measure them. To measure thermal expansion
coefficient is not that difficult. Some basic methods are listed in
http://irc.swan.ac.uk/ThExpansion.htm#Experimental%20Techniques
Many moons ago I did measurements. Equipment I had was plastic bucket,
thermometer, measuring gauge from tool room and water out of tap.
To get sub zero you could use dry ice (CO2) for cooling. You should get
down to about -78 C/-109F.
I used 250 mm long sample and the results were accurate. If somebody is
interested I can send sketch of the arrangement I used (or I will upload the
image if I can figure out how to do it. Last time did not work.)
_________________________
Regards,
Jouko
[email protected]ERROR- 60E WITH MATERIAL (393)B423 N08825
raja
Member
When I run a particular Caesar II model, I am getting ''Error no 60E'' and it
saying the temp is outside the allowed range for these material, where I
have used material (393)B423 N08825 for design temp 212 deg.(F)
Registered: 03/29/08
Posts: 22
Loc: india
But ASME B31.3-2004 shown the allowable stress 22.3 ksi for metal temp
1000 deg.(F), it means we can use up to 1000 deg(F).
In this case why the above indicated error coming ? How to solve it?
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#23069 - 12/06/08 02:56 PM
Richard
Ay
Member
Registered: 12/13/99
Posts: 5556
Loc: Houston, Texas,
USA
Re: ERROR- 60E WITH MATERIAL (393)B423 N08825 [Re: raja]
If you'll check this entry in the material database you'll find that the lowest
expansion coefficient is for 70 degF. So if you have any temperatures below
70 (including ambient) that would explain the message.
The reason for this is that the Code doesn't offer expansion coefficients at
low temperatures for this material.
_________________________
Regards,
Richard Ay
Intergraph CAS
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#23079 - 12/08/08 02:28 AM
raja
Member
Registered: 03/29/08
Posts: 22
Loc: india
Re: ERROR- 60E WITH MATERIAL (393)B423 N08825 [Re: Richard Ay]
In this case how i perform the analysis with Caesar?
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#23085 - 12/08/08 07:52 AM
Richard
Ay
Re: ERROR- 60E WITH MATERIAL (393)B423 N08825 [Re: raja]
Quote:
The reason for this is that the Code doesn't offer expansion coefficients at low
temperatures for this material.
Member
Registered: 12/13/99
Posts: 5556
Loc: Houston, Texas,
USA
Ask your "Materials Expert" for the data, or alternatively ask your pipe
supplier. We (COADE) don't have this data.
