Q &A

A Physicists Physicist Ponders the Nature of Reality

By N A T A L I E W O L C H O V E R

November 28, 2017

Edward Witten re ects on the meaning of dualities in physics and math, emergent space-
time, and the pursuit of a complete description of nature.

60

Edward Witten in his o ce at the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton, New
Jersey.

Jean Sweep for Quanta Magazine

mong the brilliant theorists cloistered in the quiet woodside

A campus of the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton, New
Jersey, Edward Witten stands out as a kind of high priest. The sole
physicist ever to win the Fields Medal, mathematics premier prize,
Witten is also known for discovering M-theory, the leading candidate
for a uni ed physical theory of everything. A geniuss genius,
Witten is tall and rectangular, with hazy eyes and an air of being only
one-quarter tuned in to reality until someone draws him back from
more abstract thoughts.

During a visit this fall, I spotted Witten on the Institutes central lawn
and requested an interview; in his quick, alto voice, he said he couldnt
promise to be able to answer my questions but would try. Later, when I
passed him on the stone paths, he often didnt seem to see me.

Physics luminaries since Albert Einstein, who lived out his days in the
same intellectual haven, have sought to unify gravity with the other
forces of nature by nding a more fundamental quantum theory to
replace Einsteins approximate picture of gravity as curves in the
geometry of space-time. M-theory, which Witten proposed in 1995,
could conceivably o er this deeper description, but only some aspects
of the theory are known. M-theory incorporates within a single
mathematical structure all ve versions of string theory, which
renders the elements of nature as minuscule vibrating strings. These
ve string theories connect to each other through dualities, or
mathematical equivalences. Over the past 30 years, Witten and others
have learned that the string theories are also mathematically dual to
quantum eld theories descriptions of particles moving through
electromagnetic and other elds that serve as the language of the
reigning Standard Model of particle physics. While hes best known
as a string theorist, Witten has discovered many new quantum eld
theories and explored how all these di erent descriptions are
connected. His physical insights have led time and again to deep
mathematical discoveries.

 Thats extremely strange, that the
world is based so much on a
mathematical structure thats so
di cult.

Researchers pore over his work and hope hell take an interest in
theirs. But for all his scholarly in uence, Witten, who is 66, does not
often broadcast his views on the implications of modern theoretical
discoveries. Even his close colleagues eagerly suggested questions they
wanted me to ask him.

When I arrived at his o ce at the appointed hour on a summery

Thursday last month, Witten wasnt there. His door was ajar. Papers
covered his co ee table and desk not stacks, but oods: text
oriented every which way, some pages close to spilling onto the oor.
(Research papers get lost in the maelstrom as he nishes with them,
he later explained, and every so often he throws the heaps away.) Two
girls smiled out from a framed photo on a shelf; childrens artwork
decorated the walls, one celebrating Grandparents Day. When Witten
arrived minutes later, we spoke for an hour and a half about the
meaning of dualities in physics and math, the current prospects of M-
theory, what hes reading, what hes looking for, and the nature of
reality. Theinterview has been condensed and edited for clarity.
Jean Sweep for Quanta Magazine

Physicists are talking more than ever lately about dualities, but
youve been studying them for decades. Why does the subject interest
you?

People keep nding new facets of dualities. Dualities are interesting

because they frequently answer questions that are otherwise out of
reach. For example, you might have spent years pondering a quantum
theory and you understand what happens when the quantum e ects
are small, but textbooks dont tell you what you do if the quantum
e ects are big; youre generally in trouble if you want to know that.
Frequently dualities answer such questions. They give you another
description, and the questions you can answer in one description are
di erent than the questions you can answer in a di erent description.

What are some of these newfound facets of dualities?

Its open-ended because there are so many di erent kinds of dualities.

There are dualities between a gauge theory [a theory, such as a
quantum eld theory, that respects certain symmetries] and another
gauge theory, or between a string theory for weak coupling [describing
strings that move almost independently from one another] and a
string theory for strong coupling. Then theres AdS/CFT duality,
between a gauge theory and a gravitational description. That duality
wasdiscovered 20 years ago, and its amazing to what extent its still
fruitful. And thats largely because around 10 years ago, new ideas
were introduced that rejuvenated it. People had new insights about
entropy in quantum eld theory the whole story about it from
qubit.

The AdS/CFT duality connects a theory of gravity

in a space-time region called anti-de Sitter space
(which curves di erently than our universe) to an
equivalent quantum eld theory describing that
regions gravity-free boundary. Everything there
is to know about AdS space often called the
bulk since its the higher-dimensional region
is encoded, like in a hologram, in quantum
interactions between particles on the lower-
dimensional boundary. Thus, AdS/CFT gives
physicists a holographic understanding of the
quantum nature of gravity.

Thats the idea that space-time and everything in it emerges like a

hologram out of information stored in the entangled quantum states
of particles.

Yes. Then there are dualities in math, which can sometimes be

interpreted physically as consequences of dualities between two
quantum eld theories. There are so many ways these things are
interconnected that any simple statement I try to make on the y, as
soon as Ive said it I realize it didnt capture the whole reality. You have
to imagine a web of di erent relationships, where the same physics
has di erent descriptions, revealing di erent properties. In the
simplest case, there are only two important descriptions, and that
might be enough. If you ask me about a more complicated example,
there might be many, many di erent ones.

Given this web of relationships and the issue of how hard it is to

characterize all duality, do you feel that this re ects a lack of
understanding of the structure, or is it that were seeing the
structure, only its very complicated?
Im not certain what we should hope for. Traditionally, quantum eld
theory was constructed by starting with the classical picture [of a
smooth eld] and then quantizing it. Now weve learned that there are
a lot of things that happen that that description doesnt do justice to.
And the same quantum theory can come from di erent classical
theories. Now,Nati Seiberg[a theoretical physicist who works down
the hall] would possibly tell you that he has faith that theres a better
formulation of quantum eld theory that we dont know about that
would make everything clearer. Im not sure how much you should
expect that to exist. That would be a dream, but it might be too much
to hope for; I really dont know.

Theres another curious fact that you might want to consider, which is
that quantum eld theory is very central to physics, and its actually
also clearly very important for math. But its extremely di cult for
mathematicians to study; the way physicists de ne it is very hard for
mathematicians to follow with a rigorous theory. Thats extremely
strange, that the world is based so much on a mathematical structure
thats so di cult.
Jean Sweep for Quanta Magazine

What do you see as the relationship between math and physics?

I prefer not to give you a cosmic answer but to comment on where we

are now. Physics in quantum eld theory and string theory somehow
has a lot ofmathematical secretsin it, which we dont know how to
extract in a systematic way. Physicists are able to come up with things
that surprise the mathematicians. Because its hard to describe
mathematically in the known formulation, the things you learn about
quantum eld theory you have to learn from physics.

I nd it hard to believe theres a new formulation thats universal. I

think its too much to hope for. I could point to theories where the
standard approach really seems inadequate, so at least for those
classes of quantum eld theories, you could hope for a new
formulation. But I really cant imagine what it would be.

You cant imagine it at all?

No, I cant. Traditionally it was thought that interacting quantum eld

theory couldnt exist above four dimensions, and there was the
interesting fact that thats the dimension we live in. But one of the
o shoots of the string dualities of the 1990s was that it was discovered
that quantum eld theories actually exist in ve and six dimensions.
And its amazing how much is known about their properties.

If theres a radically di erent dual
description of the real world, maybe
some things physicists worry about
 would be clearer, but the dual
description might be one in which
everyday life would be hard to
describe.

Ive heard about the mysterious (2,0) theory, a quantum eld theory
describing particles in six dimensions, which is dual to M-theory
describing strings and gravity in seven-dimensional AdS space. Does
this (2,0) theory play an important role in the web of dualities?

Yes, thats the pinnacle.In terms of conventional quantum eld theory

without gravity, there is nothing quite like it above six dimensions.
From the (2,0) theorys existence and main properties,you can deduce
an incredible amountabout what happens in lower dimensions. An
awful lot of important dualities in four and fewer dimensions follow
from this six-dimensional theory and its properties.However,
whereas what we know about quantum eld theory is normally from
quantizing a classical eld theory, theres no reasonable classical
starting point of the (2,0) theory. The (2,0) theory has properties [such
as combinations of symmetries] that sound impossible when you rst
hear about them. So you can ask why dualities exist, but you can also
ask why is there a 6-D theory with such and such properties? This
seems to me a more fundamental restatement.

Dualities sometimes make it hard to maintain a sense of whats real

in the world, given that there are radically di erent ways you can
describe a single system. How would you describe whats real or
fundamental?

What aspect of whats real are you interested in? What does it mean
that we exist? Or how do we t into our mathematical descriptions?

The latter.
Well, one thing Ill tell you is that in general, when you have dualities,
things that are easy to see in one description can be hard to see in the
other description. So you and I, for example, are fairly simple to
describe in the usual approach to physics as developed by Newton and
his successors. But if theres a radically di erent dual description of
the real world, maybe some things physicists worry about would be
clearer, but the dual description might be one in which everyday life
would be hard to describe.

What would you say about the prospect of an even more optimistic
idea that there could be one single quantum gravity description that
really does help you in every case in the real world?

Well, unfortunately, even if its correct I cant guarantee it would help.

Part of what makes it di cult to help is that the description we have
now, even though its not complete, does explain an awful lot. And so
its a little hard to say, even if you had a truly better description or a
more complete description, whether it would help in practice.

Are you speaking of M-theory?

M-theory is the candidate for the better description.

You proposed M-theory 22 years ago. What are its prospects today?

Personally, I thought it was extremely clear it existed 22 years ago, but

the level of con dence has got to be much higher today because
AdS/CFT has given us precise de nitions, at least in AdS space-time
geometries. I think our understanding of what it is, though, is still very
hazy. AdS/CFT and whatevers come from it is the main new
perspective compared to 22 years ago, but I think its perfectly possible
that AdS/CFT is only one side of a multifaceted story. There might be
other equally important facets.
Jean Sweep for Quanta Magazine

Whats an example of something else we might need?

Maybe a bulk description of the quantum properties of space-time

itself, rather than a holographic boundary description. There hasnt
been much progress in a long time in getting a better bulk description.
And I think that might be because the answer is of a di erent kind than
anything were used to. That would be my guess.
Are you willing to speculate about how it would be di erent?

I really doubt I can say anything useful. I guess I suspect that theres
an extra layer of abstractness compared to what were used to. I tend to
think that there isnt a precise quantum description of space-time
except in the types of situations where we know that there is, such as
in AdS space. I tend to think, otherwise, things are a little bit murkier
than an exact quantum description. But I cant say anything useful.

The other night I was reading an old essay by the 20th-century

Princeton physicist John Wheeler. He was a visionary, certainly. If you
take what he says literally, its hopelessly vague. And therefore, if I had
read this essay when it came out 30 years ago, which I may have done,
I would have rejected it as being so vague that you couldnt work on it,
even if he was on the right track.

Youre referring toInformation, Physics, Quantum, Wheelers 1989

essay propounding the idea that the physical universe arises from
information, which he dubbed it from bit. Why were you reading
it?

Im trying to learn about what people are trying to say with the phrase
it from qubit. Wheeler talked about it from bit, but you have to
remember that this essay was written probably before the term
qubit was coined and certainly before it was in wide currency.
Reading it, I really think he was talking about qubits, not bits, so it
from qubit is actually just a modern translation.

I tend to assume that space-time
and everything in it are in some
sense emergent.

Dont expect me to be able to tell you anything useful about it about
whether he was right. When I was a beginning grad student, they had a
series of lectures by faculty members to the new students about
theoretical research, and one of the people who gave such a lecture was
Wheeler. He drewa pictureon the blackboard of the universe
visualized as an eye looking at itself. I had no idea what he was talking
about. Its obvious to me in hindsight that he was explaining what it
meant to talk about quantum mechanics when the observer is part of
the quantum system. I imagine there is something we dont
understand about that.

Observing a quantum system irreversibly changes it, creating a

distinction between past and future. So the observer issue seems
possibly related to the question of time, which we also dont
understand. With the AdS/CFT duality, weve learned that new spatial
dimensions can pop up like a hologram from quantum information
on the boundary. Do you think time is also emergent that it arises
from a timeless complete description?

I tend to assume that space-time and everything in it are in some

sense emergent. By the way, youll certainly nd that thats what
Wheeler expected in his essay. As youll read, he thought the
continuum was wrong in both physics and math. He did not think
ones microscopic description of space-time should use a continuum
of any kind neither a continuum of space nor a continuum of time,
nor even a continuum of real numbers. On the space and time, Im
sympathetic to that. On the real numbers, Ive got to plead ignorance
or agnosticism. It is something I wonder about, but Ive tried to
imagine what it could mean to not use the continuum of real numbers,
and the one logician I tried discussing it with didnt help me.

Do you consider Wheeler a hero?

I wouldnt call him a hero, necessarily, no. Really I just became curious
what he meant by it from bit, and what he was saying. He de nitely
had visionary ideas, butthey were too far ahead of their time. I think I
was more patient in reading a vague but inspirational essay than I
might have been 20 years ago. Hes also got roughly 100 interesting-
sounding references in that essay. If you decided to read them all,
youd have to spend weeks doing it. I might decide to look at a few of
them.

Jean Sweep for Quanta Magazine

Why do you have more patience for such things now?

I think when I was younger I always thought the next thing I did might
be the best thing in my life. But at this point in life Im less persuaded
of that. If I waste a little time reading somebodys essay, it doesnt
seem that bad.

Do you ever take your mind o physics and math?

My favorite pastime is tennis. I am a very average but enthusiastic
tennis player.

In contrast to Wheeler, it seems like your working style is to come to

the insights through the calculations, rather than chasing a vague
vision.

In my career Ive only been able to take small jumps. Relatively small
jumps. What Wheeler was talking about was an enormous jump. And
he does say at the beginning of the essay that he has no idea if this will
take 10, 100 or 1,000 years.

R E L AT E D

1. Theories of Everything, Mapped

2. Michael Atiyahs Imaginative State of Mind

3. Physicists Uncover Geometric Theory Space

4. The Strange Second Life of String Theory

And he was talking about explaining how physics arises from

information.

Yes. The way he phrases it is broader: He wants to explain the meaning

of existence. That was actually why I thought you were asking if I
wanted to explain the meaning of existence.

I see. Does he have any hypotheses?

No. He only talks about things you shouldnt do and things you should
do in trying to arrive at a more fundamental description of physics.

Do you have any ideas about the meaning of existence?

No. [Laughs.]
 Correction: This article was updated on Nov. 29, 2017, to clarify that M-
theory is the leading candidate for a uni ed theory of everything. Other
ideas have been proposed that also claim to unify the fundamental forces.

Natalie Wolchover
Senior Writer

November 28, 2017

Mathematics Physics Q&A

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