Instructor’s Manual

COUPLES THERAPY
AN INTRODUCTION

with
Ellyn Bader, PhD & Dan Wile, PhD

by
Randall C. Wyatt, PhD
&
Erika L. Seid, MA
COUPLES THERAPY: AN INTRODUCTION

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 Psychotherapy.net

The Instructor’s Manual accompanies the DVD Couples Therapy:

An Introduction (Instructor’s Version). Video available at
www.psychotherapy.net.

Copyright © 2006, Psychotherapy. net, LLC. All rights reserved.

Published by Psychotherapy. net

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Teaching and Training: Instructors, training directors and facilitators

using the Instructor’s Manual for the DVD Couples Therapy: An
Introduction may reproduce parts of this manual in paper form for
teaching and training purposes only. Otherwise, the text of this
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Therapy: An Introduction (Institutional/Instructor’s Version) is licensed
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this video via satellite, Internet, video conferencing, streaming, distance
learning courses or other means is prohibited without the prior written
permission of the publisher.

Wyatt, Randall C. & Seid, Erika L.

Instructor’s Manual for Couples Therapy: An Introduction
with Ellyn Bader, PhD & Dan Wile, PhD
Cover design by Sabine Grand

Order Information and Continuing Education Credits:

For information on ordering this and other psychotherapy training videos,
and obtaining continuing education credits for videos, please visit us at
www. Psychotherapy. net or call 800-577-4762.
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COUPLES THERAPY: AN INTRODUCTION

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Instructor’s Manual

COUPLES THERAPY
An Introduction

with Ellyn Bader, PhD and Dan Wile, PhD

Table of Contents
Tips for Making the Best Use of the DVD 7
Interview Questions 9
Group Discussion Questions 11
Reaction Paper Guide for Classrooms and Training 13
Suggestions for Further Readings, Websites and Videos 15
Interview Transcript 17
How Does Couples Therapy Help? 17
What Couples Work On 22
Men and Women in Couples Therapy 24
Getting the Most Out of Couples Therapy 25
Does Couples Therapy Work? 30
Second Chances 33
Video Credits 37
Earn Continuing Education Credit for Watching Videos 39
About the Contributors 41
More Psychotherapy.net Videos 43

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COUPLES THERAPY: AN INTRODUCTION

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Tips for Making the Best Use of the DVD

1. USE THE TRANSCRIPTS
Make notes in the video Transcript for future reference; the next time
you show the video you will have them available. Highlight or notate key
moments in the video to better facilitate discussion during the video and
post-viewing.
2. FACILITATE DISCUSSION
Pause the video at different points throughout the interview to elicit
viewers’ observations and reactions to the concepts presented. The
Discussion Questions provide ideas about key points that can stimulate
rich discussions and learning.
3. LET IT FLOW
Allow the interview to play out so viewers can appreciate the flow of the
conversation. It is best to watch the full video since issues untouched in
earlier parts of the interview may be covered later. Encourage the viewers
to voice their opinions; no therapist is perfect! What do viewers think
works and does not work in the therapists’ approaches? It is crucial for
students and therapists to develop the ability to effectively critique others’
work as well as their own.
4. SUGGEST READINGS TO ENRICH VIDEO MATERIAL
Assign readings from Suggestions for Further Readings and Websites
prior to viewing. You can also time the video to coincide with other course
or training materials on related topics.
5. ASSIGN A REACTION PAPER
See suggestions in Reaction Paper section.
6. INVITE ROLE-PLAYS
In this video, the therapists discuss ways of working with couples around a
variety of issues. Ask viewers to select points brought out in the video that
they would like to practice.

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COUPLES THERAPY: AN INTRODUCTION

After watching the video, organize participants into groups of four.

Participants take turns practicing key points they want to work on by
playing the therapist in a brief (5-10 minute) role-play. Each role-play shall
consist of one therapist, one couple and one observer. You can stop after
one round or have each participant play the role of therapist, then have the
groups come together to discuss the exercise. Open up a general discussion
on what participants learned about doing couples therapy, what was
positive about the experience and what was hard for them.
PERSPECTIVE ON VIDEOS AND THE PERSONALITY OF THE THERAPIST
Every psychotherapy is unique, influenced as much by the personality
and style of the therapist as by the use of specific techniques and theories.
Thus, while we can certainly pick up ideas from master therapists, each
viewer must make the best use of relevant theory, technique and research
that fits their own personal style and the needs of their clients.

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Interview Questions
Interivew questions are presented in the order they appear in the video.
1. People often wonder if couples therapy can help them. They may
have been struggling for years with problems. They may feel really
stuck. How can couples therapy help them?
2. What kind of growth do you see in couples therapy? What kind of
changes are possible?
3. Often times, even though the couple knows they’re in big trouble,
that one person may even be then thinking, ‘This could be the end
of this,’ one or both parties may be reluctant to come in. Why do
you think that is? And how can they be helped to overcome that?
4. Do you think that the therapist must be more active in couples
therapy?
5. A big problem people come in with sometimes is that one person
says, ‘I think the problem is them.’ The other person thinks the
problem is the other person, and the goal of therapy is to fix the
other person. How do you help people deal with this thing that
seemingly can cycle endlessly?
6. Another thing that couples seem to worry about is when one
person seems more committed than the other. They may be more
committed to the marriage or the relationship, and they have a
strong disagreement on what to do about it. How does couples
therapy help them with this issue?
7. Do you see any differences between men and women in general?
Do men and women come in with any different sorts of problems?
8. Sometimes, in a committed long-term relationship, it is not
uncommon for intimacy or sexuality to break down. Is this
something that’s important for the couple to bring up in therapy,
and how do you deal with that?
9. What can a couple do to get the most benefit from being in
couples therapy?

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COUPLES THERAPY: AN INTRODUCTION

10. You said something about how a partner will assume the other
person can’t handle or deal with something they are about to say.
Can you say more about how that works?
11. How does the couple know if this couples therapist is right for
them? If it’s a good fit or a bad fit?
12. Are there times when you see members of the couple individually?
And when might that be?
13. If you meet with a person individually and secrets are revealed,
do you keep it private? How does confidentiality work in these
situations?
14. Does therapy help people? What kind of help can people expect
from it? How many people do get better when they come in for
couples counseling?
15. What do you say to couples when they come in and ask, ‘How long
will therapy take’?
16. What do you most enjoy about working with couples?
17. What moved you to be in this video, participating and talking to
couples who are either considering couples therapy or are already
in it?

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Group Discussion Questions

Professors, training directors or facilitators may use a few or all of these
discussion questions keyed to certain elements of the video or those issues
most relevant to the viewers.
1. Something New: Can you imagine working with a couple that has
been stuck in a serious, negative pattern for many years? How do you
see yourself bringing in something new?
2. Communication: How do you balance talking about communication
problems and strategies without becoming lost in or overwhelmed by
the content of the couple’s life issues (e.g., sex, money or child-rearing
problems)? What’s hard for you about this?
3. Homework: How do you feel about using homework in therapy?
What aspects of homework are you more comfortable with? Less
comfortable?
4. Goals: How do you go about setting goals with the couple that comes
in highly emotionally charged? In what ways are you likely to be
thrown off? What might be particularly challenging for you about
this?
5. Motivation: Do you agree with the premise that a more motivated
partner can bring the less motivated one into the process? Why or
why not? How do you feel sitting with a couple where one is clearly
more committed to the process than the other?
6. Individual Sessions: What do you think about seeing partners
individually during the course of couples therapy? What about before
or after a course of couples therapy? What are the pros and cons of
keeping or not keeping secrets? Which way do you personally feel
most comfortable?
7. Separation: If you were working with a couple that had decided to
separate, would you feel comfortable working to help them have a
better separation? Might feelings of self-doubt come up for you as a
therapist if your clients did not stay together? Where would you go
with that?

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COUPLES THERAPY: AN INTRODUCTION

8. Duration: What do you think is an appropriate length of time for

a couple to be in therapy? Do you answer the question differently
for individual therapy? If yes, why? How do you feel about couples
coming back to therapy multiple times? What does this say about the
success of the treatment?

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Reaction Paper for Classrooms and Training

• Assignment: Complete the reaction paper and return it by the date
noted by the professor or facilitator.
• Suggestions for Viewers: Take notes on these questions while
viewing the video and complete the reaction paper afterwards or
use the questions as a way to approach discussion. Respond to each
question below.
• Length and Style: 2-4 pages double-spaced. Be brief and concise. Do
NOT provide a full synopsis of the video. This is meant to be a brief
reaction paper that you write soon after watching the video--we want
your ideas and reactions.
What to Write: Respond to the following questions in your reaction paper:
1. Key points: What important points did you learn about working with
couples? What stands out in how these therapists talk about their
work?
2. What I am resistant to. What issues/principles/strategies did you
find yourself having resistance to, or what approaches made you
feel uncomfortable? Did any techniques or interactions push your
buttons? What interventions would you be least likely to apply in
your work? Explore these questions.
3. What I found most helpful. What was most beneficial to you as a
therapist about the models presented? What tools or perspectives did
you find helpful and might you use in your own work?
4. How I would do it differently. What might you do differently than
therapists in the video in terms of how you would approach couples
work? Be specific in what different approaches, strategies and
techniques you might apply. What other questions would you have
asked these therapists if you could ask them more questions?
5. Other Questions/Reactions: What questions or reactions did you
have as you viewed the therapy in the video? Other comments,
thoughts or feelings?

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COUPLES THERAPY: AN INTRODUCTION

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Suggestions for Further Readings,

Websites and Videos

BOOKS
Bader, E. & Pearson, P. P. (1988). In Quest of the Mythical Mate: A
Developmental Approach to Diagnosis and Treatment in Couples
Therapy. Brunner/Mazel.
Gottman, J. et al (1995). Why Marriages Succeed or Fail. Simon & Schuster.
Gottman, John (1999). The Marriage Clinic: A Scientifically-Based Marital
Therapy. W. W. Norton & Company.
Heitler, Susan (1994). From Conflict to Resolution: Skills and Strategies for
Individual, Couple, and Family Therapy. W. W. Norton.
Wile, D. (1992) Couples Therapy: A Nontraditional Approach. Wiley.

WEB RESOURCES
www.psychotherapy.net Three in-depth interviews with master
couples therapists John Gottman, Insoo
Kim Berg, & Susan Heitler
www.therapyhelp.com Heitler’s TherapyHelp.com
www.danwile.com Dan Wile’s Collaborative Therapy
www.couplesinstitute.com Couples Institute: Bader & Pearson
www.gottman.com Gottman Institute

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COUPLES THERAPY: AN INTRODUCTION

RELATED VIDEOS AVAILABLE

AT WWW.PSYCHOTHERAPY.NET
The Angry Couple
– Susan Heitler, PhD
Couples and Infertility: Moving Beyond Loss
–T he Ackerman Institute for the Family
Couple Therapy for Addictions
– Barbara S. McGrady, PhD
Gender Differences In Depression: A Marital Therapy Approach
–T he Ackerman Institute for the Family
Harville Hendrix on The Healing Relationship, with Randall C. Wyatt
– Harville Hendrix, PhD
Irreconcilable Differences: A Solution-Focused Approach to Marital Therapy
– Insoo Kim Berg, MSSW

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Complete Transcript of
Couples Therapy: An Introduction
with Ellyn Bader, PhD and Dan Wile, PhD

HOW DOES COUPLES THERAPY HELP?

00:00:20 [Time stamp provided for assistance in locating the interviewer’s questions]
Wyatt: Today, we will be talking to two internationally renowned therapists,
Dr. Daniel Wile and Dr. Ellyn Bader.
Dr. Bader is a clinical psychologist. She is co-founder and director of The
Couples Institute in Menlo Park, California. She was formerly a clinical
faculty member at Stanford University for eight years. She has appeared
on The Today Show, CBS Early Morning News, and multiple radio talk
shows. She has written two books, both co-authored with her husband, Peter
Pearson.
Dr. Wile is also a clinical psychologist. He has a private practice in
Oakland, California. He is the author of several important books on couples
therapy including After the Honeymoon, How Conflict Can Improve Your
Relationship, and After the Fight. He’s also written over a dozen articles on
topics on couples therapy and has been a leader in training therapists.
Thank you both for being here.
People often wonder if couples therapy can help them. They may have been
struggling for years with problems. They may feel really stuck. How can
couples therapy help them?
Bader: Okay, well, first of all, you are right. Couples struggle, and
sometimes they struggle way, way, way much more than they would
ever need to struggle, because they struggle for years repeating the same
destructive, negative cycles or the same patterns. And one of the things
that couples therapy is so good for, is stopping those destructive cycles.
And there’s actually two pretty common predictable cycles. One is where

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COUPLES THERAPY: AN INTRODUCTION

people avoid conflicts with each other. The other is where they get into
escalating negative interactions. And one of the things that couples
therapy is so good for is being able to stop, stop those patterns and start
positive cycles.
Wile: That’s exactly what I would say.
Bader: Oh, great.
Wile: Yeah, that people do suffer from the two things you mentioned,
which is withdrawal or getting into fights. And there is a way, right
there in the couple therapy situation, that you can take that fight or that
withdrawn interaction and turn it into a more collaborative, intimate one,
and that’s what they are needing to do in their own lives.
00:02:50
Wyatt: Okay. What kinds of problems do people come in with?
Wile: Well, they come in with all the kinds of things you’d expect. You
know, problems with money and with differences about child rearing and
sex and all kinds of things like that. But, from my point of view, the big
problem is the secondary problem of how they talk about all the other
problems, in the way that we were just talking about. So, in dealing with
any of these problems, they either get into fights about them, or they
sort of give up talking and just kind of withdraw. And so the big, the big
problem, everybody’s big problem, is how to talk about these issues that
come up in a way that’s collaborative, that works out, that involves some…
gets… resurrects some intimacy in their relationship.
Bader: Well, first of all, the most common presenting problem…
Almost every couple who walks in the door says, “Our problem is
communication.” And in a way, that’s right, and in another way, I don’t
think it’s exactly right. In that, what I mean is similar to what Dan was
saying, that a big problem is managing our own reactions and our own
emotional reactivity when we hear what our partners say or when we hear
things we don’t want to hear, when we hear things that are difficult. And
so I think that learning how to manage ourselves with our partners is one
of the, both, wonderfully growth promoting things about couples therapy.
It’s one of the challenges for all of us as human beings, and it’s where a lot
of the growth comes from.
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00:04:31
Wyatt: What kind of growth do you see in couples therapy? I mean, what
kind of changes are possible?
Bader: Enormous changes are possible. I think marriage or committed
relationships is where all of us grow up. And one of the ways that I think
about it is that we all want a wonderful intimate, perfect relationship, and
our culture kind of promotes the idea that that’s possible. And yet, most
of us have never been in a non-hierarchical relationship until we choose
our partners. We have been in hierarchies in school with teachers and our
families with our parents, with our siblings, at work with bosses, and all of
a sudden, you are in a relationship with somebody where you are trying to
be equal. And it’s a real learning process. It’s not easy. And it’s a learning
process for all of us, and to get stuck is normal.
I mean, one of the things that I find a lot is I do a lot of couples workshops,
and one of the things that couples say is, “Gosh, I never realized how alike
we are” or, “how much we are like these other couples!” And the things
that people learn the most is how similar they are, and it’s tremendously
reassuring to not feel pathological, to not feel sick when you are stuck,
when you are at an impasse. And so I think couples therapy is good at
getting people out of those common, predictable impasses. Learning how
to be more nurturing at times, be able to respond to our partners more
effectively…. Those are a few things.
Wile: One of the immediate things that you see changed is partners who
before are kind of, just sort of tight and tense with one another or not
talking much or getting into irritable kind of exchanges. Where all of
the sudden, there is kind of a warmth between them or a sense of humor
comes up or one turns to the other and says, “I am so lucky that someone
didn’t grab you away a long time ago.”
Bader: One of the things I often say to couples is that it takes guts and
courage to have an intimate relationship, and we don’t normally, again,
think of it that way, but I think it takes guts to be intimate, to expose
yourself, to reveal yourself, to let the other person know a lot about you.
And sometimes it takes courage to hear what the other person is saying,
and the intimacy comes in slowing things down enough to be able to really
hear what our partners are telling us. Even sometimes the negative things.
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COUPLES THERAPY: AN INTRODUCTION

Some of the most intimate conversations I have heard couples have are on
topics that you would not expect.
I have a classic story that I tell that was of a couple in a workshop where
she said to him, “Do you really want to know how I feel?” And he said,
“Yes.” And she said, “I pray for your death.”
And believe me, it was like tension, incredible tension in the room. And
he was amazing. He learned some of the things we have been teaching,
and he said to her, “Now, just how long have you been praying?” And she
proceeded to tell him how she had been so afraid and been so conflict-
avoidant, she had been afraid to tell him things that were really bothering
her. And the only way she imagined getting out of it was if he died. And
she opened up and began to tell him a whole lot, and it was…. They had a
very, very intimate conversation and felt quite differently at the end of it.
Wile: I’ve heard that story from someone that went to your workshop–
Bader: I know.
Wile: –and it’s an amazing story, and it really captures what we all hope
would happen that, in an extreme way, which is that people can say
whatever’s on their mind about the other person, and it can be heard. The
hurt or the disappointment can be heard beyond the obvious attacking,
blaming quality to it. And that is, that’s the big issue. That’s the big…
That’s what we are all trying to do.
00:08:44
Wyatt: Often times, even though the couple knows they’re in big trouble, that
one person may even be then thinking, “This could be the end of this,” one or
both parties may be reluctant to come in.
Bader: They usually are.
Wyatt: Yeah. And why do you think that is? And how can they be helped to
overcome that?
Wile: Well, sometimes, for good reasons. Like one person, let’s say it’s
the man, feels humiliated about coming to see a therapist. It’s just not
anything that he has ever been comfortable with, and that’s what he will
feel talking to someone. Or maybe it’s somebody who had been in couple
therapy before, and it didn’t help or he thought it made it worse or he
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thought he was ganged up on by his wife and the therapist.

So, people have good reasons to have some reservations about it. Another
reason is they could be afraid that if they really talked about the problem,
they would discover that they are incompatible and it would end the
relationship, and they would rather let the sleeping dogs lie. All these are
understandable fears.
Wyatt: So, they are understandable, but might they keep the person even
from coming in? I mean, if it does, they won’t be able to get help from you.
Wile: That’s right. So, you are kind of hoping that they’ll sort of give it a
try or their partner will talk them into it for a moment. Or they’ll just try
it once and that they will get a sense right away in the first session that the
fears are not going to be realized, and there is some hopefulness in it.
00:10:22
Wyatt: Do you think that the therapist must be more active in couples
therapy?
Bader: Yes.
Wyatt: That’s important?
Bader: Yes. I... Yes. I feel very strongly about that. I don’t think in couples
therapy, especially with the tougher problems, that a therapist can be
inactive in the initial stages of couples therapy.
Wyatt: They cannot be inactive.
Bader: They have to be active and provide a lot of structure in the early
stages. To interrupt. I mean, once you see a fight, you know the pattern,
often, of that couple’s fighting. You don’t have to see it a lot of times, and
so to have a couple come in and repeat something over and over again
that’s destructive isn’t a good use of the time or money.
One of the ways that I think about the role of a couples therapist is that I
am both, I’m a coach, I’m a teacher at times, and I’m a travel agent. And
by travel agent, I mean that I help the couple take a look at where do they
want to go? You know, you don’t go into a travel agent and say, “Send me
on a trip.” You say, “I want to go to Alaska.” Well, I want the couple… and
I spend time with couples figuring out, what kind of relationship do you
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COUPLES THERAPY: AN INTRODUCTION

want to have, what do you want it to look like? And so, part of it is setting
the trajectory for a positive future.
In a coaching way, I think, I do coach people on their interactions with
each other to try things differently and to experiment and be willing to
take risks and do things in a different way and see what the outcome is.
I think partners sometimes believe that their partner can’t handle
something. I will give you an example in a minute, but… And so, they
become this funny kind of protective of each other and so the things don’t
get talked about. And so that, as a therapist, part of my role is to help bring
those up and help people learn that they can tolerate or deal with way
more than they think they can.

WHAT COUPLES WORK ON

00:12:28
Wyatt: A big problem people come in with sometimes is that one person says,
“I think the problem is them.” The other person thinks the problem is the
other person, and the goal of therapy is to fix the other person.
Now, have you seen this, both, yourself? I’m sure you have. And how do you
help people deal with this thing that seemingly can cycle endlessly?
Wile: Well, I… I expect that to happen, because when people are in a fight,
that’s what part of being in a fight is. It is, for the moment, really looking
at the injury your partner has done to you and underestimating how you’re
being provocative. So, I am assuming that.
Now, what I am trying to do is to get behind both persons, to show how
both partners’ positions make sense in a way that would get each partner
to get some appreciation, that the other person’s position might make
more sense than they think.
So, if I get behind each, they enjoy it. And then the other one begins to
see, “Well, now, maybe the other partner has more in their position than
I was thinking.”
Bader: A homework assignment that I like to give sometimes is to…
Because I, like Dan, expect that to happen. It’s inevitable but, often, each
person is pointing a finger at the other person. So a homework assignment
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that I like to give is, “What do you think that you need to do to be a more
effective partner?” And I give that to each person to go home and think
about, what it is they need to do to be more effective themselves. And then
I’ll sometimes follow that up with, not only what do you need to do, but
what’s in your way? What’s stopping you from doing that now?
00:14:18
Wyatt: Another thing that couples seem to worry about is when one person
seems more committed than the other. They may be more committed to the
marriage or the relationship, and they have a strong disagreement about what
to do about it. How does couples therapy help them with this issue?
Bader: Well, first of all, one of the things that I think is crucial is if you
have one person who is more committed or more motivated, that’s terrific.
Because if the person who is committed or motivated, they can be the first
one to make some substantial changes. And when they make the changes,
then it begins to spiral in a positive way into the relationship.
Sometimes, when a person is more motivated, they drag their feet waiting
for the other person to catch up to their level of motivation, and in fact, on
different issues, I expect that on different issues, one person will be more
motivated than another.
Classic is… very classic is, men are more motivated to talk about the
sexual relationship, and women may be much more motivated to talk
about household chores and management of the children.
Wile: Whatever the couple is concerned about, and if one is motivated
about something and the other one is not motivated about that, that’s fine
from my point of view. That becomes the issue in which I want to help
them have an elegant conversation. Since what I am looking for is intimacy
in whatever they are talking about, there can be very intimate discussions
about how one is more committed about something and the other one is
not, and then how they work the angles of that and all the struggles about
that.

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MEN AND WOMEN IN COUPLES THERAPY

00:15:57
Wyatt: Do you see any differences between men and women in general?
Now, obviously not all men or all women would be that way. But do men and
women come in with any different sorts of problems?
Bader: I don’t like the sex stereotyping too much because I think… You
know, the classic stereotype is women express their feelings more and men
are more thinkers, and yet, what I see is men have an enormous range of
feelings, and they just don’t express it the same way as women do. And
that, in fact, therapy, couples therapy, often helps women understand what
their partners feel that they are not able to see, because they don’t express
it the same way as their women friends.
Wile: Women might, on the average, be quicker to say, “Well, you know,
I want to be able to talk more and to talk about feelings” and like, as you
are saying, “I can do with my women friends.” So, they are quicker to say
that, but if you look beneath the surface, you usually find that the man is
wanting intimacy also of a very similar kind of sort. It just comes out a
little bit more slowly. And so, I agree that if you really look at it, then men
and women are very similar.
Wyatt: So, the way that men or women may characteristically express
themselves may be different, but you’ve found that they still come in with
similar issues?
Bader: And have similar feelings about a whole range of things.
00:17:26
Wyatt: Sometimes, in a committed long-term relationship, it is not uncommon
for intimacy or sexuality to break down. Is this something that’s important for
the couple to bring up in therapy, and how do you deal with that?
Wile: The special advantage of couple therapy for that, is that when things
begin to go wrong, usually the partners don’t talk about it. It’s one of those
things that’s kind of hard to bring up. They only bring it up in the off hand
kind of way; they don’t get too far into it. So that the…
And, you know, what happens is, someone begins to lose a little bit of
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interest or the man feels rejected when he makes overtures and then pretty
soon he stops making them, and sex could just become very infrequent.
That’s a very common problem. And they don’t really talk that much
about it. And both are feeling kind of hurt in their own way.
So, couple therapy is just a great situation where you have this third person
who is just asking some straightforward, direct questions that are hard
for the couple themselves to bring up, to just talk directly about it. And
sometimes that can help a lot, very quickly.
Bader: I think couples therapy is a great place, also, to deal with sexual
issues. And probably the two most common sexual problems… And
often, I mean, for… couples stop having sex. Many couples stop having
sex sort of three to four years into the relationship. And I think it is often
because there are different desire levels, and it’s not so much that there
is a different desire level but then the misinterpretations that happen
around it. So, one partner doesn’t want sex very often, and the other
person experiences that very personally. It’s a personal hurt; it’s a personal
rejection. And just being able to understand the difference in desire levels
and where that comes from, already begins to make a shift.
Another classic problem is, let’s say, and I’ll use the sex roles again here, but
let’s say a woman wants to tell a man how she wants to be touched and where
she wants to be touched. And he feels like she’s controlling him, and so he
may say, “I don’t want to hear about it” or “I don’t want to be controlled that
way.” And when you can slow the conversation down, help them understand
that it’s not control but it is, in fact, a path, a way to greater intimacy to
understand what it is that really is a turn on. What turns her on, what she
wants. That, in fact, she wants to be more passionate with him rather than to
be more shut down or withdrawn from him.

GETTING THE MOST OUT OF COUPLES THERAPY

00:20:19
Wyatt: In your experience what can a couple do to get the most benefit from
being in couples therapy?
Bader: Well that’s a topic I love to talk about, because I absolutely think
that the way couples get the most out of therapy is if they’re willing to stay
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conscious about their own goals. And so that when they go home, if there
is a homework assignment that the therapist has given, that they do the
homework. That when they come in to a session, they will start the session,
they will initiate the session by saying, “What I want to look at today is…
the way I blew up and why I blew up at her or him the way that I blew up.
And I know that the kind of partner I want to be is one who is supportive
and not one who is angry and demeaning.” And those kinds of initiations
of goals or content for a session help the therapy move more quickly.
Wile: And one thing is that, is that it’s important or useful to have couples,
partners, clients feel comfortable to doing, to say things about how they’re
feeling about what’s going on in the therapy. Like, if they are feeling that
it’s not really touching on what they want to touch on, or if they feel that
the therapist seems to be siding more with one partner or the other, the
more they’re able to bring that up, the better the therapy goes.
Bader: And one of things… one of the reasons that I agreed to do this
interview was because I think that the more educated any couple is by the
therapist about how to get the most out of therapy then they can play a
very active role in making the therapy productive, and it’s not completely
on the therapist. It’s a very interactive process. But it takes some education.
It takes people understanding what they can contribute that will actually
help it go better.
00:22:15
Wyatt: A moment ago, Dr. Bader, you said something about how a partner
will assume the other person can’t handle or deal with something they are
about to say. Can you say more about how that works?
Bader: Yeah, I could say a lot. It’s actually why I wrote the book, Tell Me
No Lies. But I’ll try to summarize the whole book in, like, a really short
piece. Which is, I think that in…
Everybody that you meet on the street would say, or almost everybody
would say, “I want an intimate relationship, I want a close loving
relationship.” And yet, we either train our partners not to be intimate with
us by when they tell us something we don’t want to hear, we collapse into
tears, we blow up, we yell at them and kind of give out the message, “I can’t
handle that. Don’t tell me.” And so then the next time, partner doesn’t tell
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you the truth.

A simple classic example is, let’s say you have a couple, and she goes out for
the evening. He’s home with the four-year old, who he’s supposed to put to
bed. And of course he doesn’t get her to bed on time. He may not even give
her the bath. Wife comes home, and she says, “So, did you get Suzy to bed
on time?” And if he says “no,” she’ll say, “Well, this is awful. You know,
you said you would do it. I can’t count on you. I can’t rely on you.” And
so, he feels like, “So, why did I bother telling her the truth?” And the next
time, what happens is he’ll say, “Oh, yeah. I got her to bed on time.” Even
though he probably didn’t or, “Yeah, she got a bath” when she really didn’t.
That’s the simple, kind of innocuous process, but it goes on all the time.
And as it goes on more and more, we begin to learn or believe or create
an illusion in our minds that our partners can’t handle us being really
forthright with them and telling them the truth.
Like, “No, I actually had much more fun playing with her, and I decided
not to give her a bath.” That would be the more forthright thing to say. So,
part of what I think couples therapy is about is learning that it’s really okay
to be forthright and say those things and tolerate then the discussion that
might come, might follow from it.
Wile: That’s really nice. The way I think about that is the partners are
really sensitive to one another. They, you know, here’s this person who’s
most important to you in your whole life except for your kids who are
important in another way. And you really are affected by how they are
thinking and feeling about you moment to moment, so you really take…
react strongly when that person gets angry at you. And you can find
yourself fudging a little bit. And you can find yourself not saying things.
So, there’s this kind of intermixture between times when there is some
sharp words said and then even longer times when things aren’t quite
being said. And not just fudging the truth, but just keeping it to yourself.
And that’s the cycle that everybody is in that couple therapy is trying to
help people out of, by providing a situation where you can say some of
these things that you didn’t say before as well as where you can say why
you didn’t say them.

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00:25:44
Wyatt: It sounds like people are afraid, rightly so, when they come into
couples therapy that all these things will come out. But often times, are you
guys saying that you learn more about peoples’ strengths and their good
qualities that come out, not only learn but get reignited from early on in their
relationship?
Bader: I think good couples therapy helps bring out the best in each
person. And even sometimes is a voice for helping a partner recognize
what they’re not seeing. So, there’ll be times when I might say to a man
or woman, “I think what your partner is really telling you is…” whatever.
You know, some… “I think what they are really telling you is that you
really mean a lot to them, and because you mean so much to them they are
afraid to tell you this.”
Wile: People are really grateful, often, when you say that for them. They
say, “Yeah, that’s what I wanted to say.”
Bader: Right.
Wile: “But it didn’t come out right.”
00:26:48
Wyatt: How does the couple know if this couples therapist is right for them? If
it’s a good fit or a bad fit?
Bader: A big warning sign is if you are going home, session after session,
feeling worse than when you came in, that’s a big red flag. I think that very
early on, partners in couples therapy either have a sense that the therapist
does understand what they’re talking about and is actively intervening
enough, or they go away with the feeling of “we’re not getting anywhere.”
I mean, the classic thing I hear from couples who had bad couples therapy
experiences is, “We just came in and talked about the same things over
and over again. We didn’t have any different idea about what to do when
we went home, and it just seemed like we never were getting any place.”
00:27:48
Wyatt: Are there times when you see members of the couple individually?
And when might that be?
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Wile: Therapists differ a lot on this. Some therapists always make sure to
do that. My inclination is, I don’t think of doing that unless it occurs to
one of them that it might be a good idea. If it occurs to one of them that it
might be a good idea, they really have something in mind, you might want
to find out about it, and maybe do it then.
Wyatt: Okay.
Bader: I am probably on the loose end on this one in that I like to see
people, sometimes, separately particularly given the kinds of travel and
work schedules that people have now where a lot of times one partner
is out of town. And so, I will sometimes see a partner without the other
person.
One of the things that I do when I do that is, first of all, to make sure that
it’s okay with both people. And then after that’s clear, to let the person
know that either one of us can feedback what went on in that session.
00:28:53
Wyatt: That brings up the question of secrets. If you meet with a person
individually and secrets were revealed, do you keep it private? How does
confidentiality work in these situations?
Wile: Yeah, well, that is a big, big problem. And I’ve done different things
at different times. So, one thing I’ve done is when they are, both are in
the session and they are talking about seeing me, each for an individual
session, to ask them, “Well, what do we do about confidentiality?”
And I even mention the big one. “Suppose someone says something
like, say, they’re having an affair. What am I supposed to do with that
information?” So, we have a clear understanding right away whether that’s
to be kept secret or whether that’s not to be kept secret.
Bader: I don’t have one policy for every single couple or every case but so,
it’s very case specific and hard to give a short answer on.
I often do it the way Dan did. There are some couples, I wouldn’t see them
separately. With most couples, I really want to know if there is a secret,
so I tell people early on at the beginning that I am going be the most
helpful to them if they are willing to be straight with me and give me the
information, and I really do know what’s going on.

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COUPLES THERAPY: AN INTRODUCTION

Wile: And as you can see, different therapists have different views about
secrets and confidentiality. So, it’s probably best for a couple to talk to
their therapist about what his or her views about the matter are.

DOES COUPLES THERAPY WORK?

00:30:23
Wyatt: People often ask, you know, “Can therapy help us?” Does therapy
help people? I mean, what kind of help can people expect from it? And, I don’t
know if you have an exact percentage, probably not, but how many people do
get better when they come in for couples counseling?
Bader: Well, first of all, you have to know what better means to answer
that, really, because there are times when people come in to separate
and they may not say that to you in the first session or two. But that’s
really what they want, is to separate. So, a successful separation where
they ended and they do it without hurting each other could be a success.
But… so, it’s very hard to put percentages on it. I would say an enormous
number of the people who come to see me, get a lot out of it. Most of them
reach their goals. Some of them do decide to split up. And sometimes they
are both happy about it, and sometimes they are not.
Wile: Well, I don’t know the exact figures. I mean, some people get a lot
out of it. Some people get nothing at all out of it. There’s a whole bunch of
people that get sort of something about…out of it. What I’m looking, all
the time, is to take whatever they are struggling with and try to just get the
most elegant conversations I can with them, so that if they do decide to
part, while they do so, they have a better divorce than they had a marriage.
Wyatt: I’ve even seen it when the couple that comes in wanting to separate
and divorce, and they do so well in the therapy, plotting out their divorce,
they decide, “We still are in love with each other, and we want to get back
together.” Have either one of you seen that, where people come in just thinking
it will never work, and it works?
Bader: Yeah. And in fact, my husband and I do a couples workshop
together, and one of the things that’s happened with that workshop, is
we’ve had some people come who are right on the edge of divorce or who
have come in for the purpose of being able to have a better divorce, and
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one of the things that we talk a lot about in the workshop is the normal
developmental stages the relationships go through, and they began to
identify themselves as being somewhere in those stages and recognize that
it really is a premature divorce. And I think there are a lot of premature
divorces. I think our culture really promotes the “instant fix,” that you
should always be feeling good. We don’t have a lot of support in our
culture for struggling through some of the tougher times and coming out
on the other side of it.
00:33:05
Wyatt: What do you say to couples when they come in and ask, “How long
will therapy take”?
Bader: I say that the length is often dependent on both the strength and
the urgency of their own motivation. That, you know, that the more
strongly motivated they are and the more urgent they feel for things to get
done, the faster they are going to get done.
Wyatt: What if one person says, “Well, I think we can do that in two
sessions;” the other person says, “I think we need years”?
Bader: What I would say is, “You might both be right. So, you might
do… You might surprise me. You might do an incredible amount in two
sessions.” In fact, the one who says two sessions, I say, “You may do all
kinds of thing between now and the next session that are going to surprise
the heck out of him or her.”
You know, what I am pulling for and trying to capitalize on a little bit is,
“If you don’t want to be here a long time, then get moving.”
Wile: I answer kind of straightforwardly. I say, “Well, a lot of people come
couple of months. That’s the… Some people come one or two sessions.
And sometimes people, a few people come years.” And it’s… The idea that
I’m trying to get across is that it’s all up to them and what they’re wanting.
And they’re the ones that are going to be making the decision.
Bader: I think that there are a couple of concepts that when couples get
them, make an enormous difference about what they can do on their own
outside of couples therapy. One is the concept that I teach them, “being
curious instead of furious,” that when you can, in those moments when

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you want to clobber your partner and you think they have done something
outrageous, if you can turn that into curiosity about, “Can you tell me
what was going on? Can you tell me how come you just did that?” Can you
really ask and enquire in a sincere way about something your partner did,
rather than attacking them or sitting with your fury and doing nothing
about it? So, that when couples do that, when they get that and they start
to do that, they can do a lot without a therapist.
One of the fights my husband and I used to have in a really repetitive way
was about household chores, which is a common one, too, for couples. But
he would say, he has a much higher tolerance for visual disarray than I do.
In other words, he is much more of slob than I am. But he…
So, we used to fight about that, and, you know, I’d come home and the
dishes wouldn’t be put away out of the dishwasher and he said he was
going to clean up and the counters were still scattered with things. And
I’d walk in the door, and I’d start going, “Now, why didn’t you do X?
Why didn’t you do those things?” And then, he’d feel like responding in
a very rebellious, nasty way to me, and so we could get into a pretty bad
cycle. And when I was able to start asking him, “How do you want me to
respond?” The curiosity. “How do you want me to respond? What is it you
would like me to do when I come home and you have said that you would
do X or Y and you didn’t do it?”
And one of the things I had to learn about him, which is very different
than how I am, is that…lots of positive strokes. Lots of positive
recognition, even for things that I thought were small, were building in
the direction that I wanted to go. And so I had to stretch myself to, even
when the job wasn’t completed, to be able to say, “Hey, terrific. Thank
you. The dishes were put away, and it’s great when I come home and I see
that I don’t have to empty the dishwasher.” And there might still be, you
know, the table not washed off and the counters not clean. And so, it’s all
successive approximation of positive regard, but I had to learn what those
positive strokes meant to him, instead of just clobbering him.

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SECOND CHANCES
00:37:00
Wyatt: It’s clear from talking to you both that you enjoy doing couples
therapy. What do you most enjoy about working with couples?
Wile: Well, it’s taking someone who’s come into the office, and they’re
kind of demoralized, and they’re kind of looking down at the ground. Or
they’ve got this angry look in their eye, and they’ve had a battle, and take
that and turn it into an intimate conversation.
Bader: I find it inspirational, for one thing. It just, I mean, there are
sessions where I feel privileged to be a part of whatever that couple is
talking about or the changes that they’re making. I like it because I think
it’s faster than individual therapy, in general. You don’t have to wait for
things to develop between you and the client. It’s already very developed
in the partnership. And I get to see it, and I also get to witness the changes
that people make. So, I get to see them when they’re in that worst, most
awful place, and I really get to see the transition and the transformation
and the change to the good place.
Wile: Yeah, I sure feel that, too. Like, there’s many times in sessions when
the partners get in touch with something and something very intimate
happens that has a lovely poetic quality that really draws me in, and I find
myself tearing up some. That’s a regular occurrence.
00:38:20
Wyatt: What about this video… in participating and talking to couples who
are either considering couples therapy or already in it, moved you to be in
this, in this video?
Bader: A few things. For me, one was what I said to you before that I
think there are premature divorces, and I would love to see more people
give themselves a chance in couples therapy before they just escalate into
a divorce. Because I think that the homework, or if people get educated
about what couples therapy is about, I hope they will come to it with a
different feeling about it.
Wile: Well, what I would hope, is that people would feel empowered that
a lot of the responsibility is the therapist to see where they are, rather than
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COUPLES THERAPY: AN INTRODUCTION

that they have to do things. That they can participate in the decisions
about what the therapy is and how it goes, that they can bring up if they
feel the therapist is taking sides that there’s…. Versus a view that, maybe
it’s less common now that, you know, this is the expert who knows things,
and you should just go along with it. I wanted to counter that view.
Bader: Yeah, one other thing. I think relationship is so core to how people
feel about themselves, I think. I mean, I think it’s very core to our own
self-esteem if we feel like we’re succeeding in a relationship or having
a meaningful relationship. And I just think couples therapists have a
tremendous amount to offer people in terms of not only their sense of
their own capacity to be successful in their relationships but that that
spills over once a person has that and they have internalized that they feel
good about themselves in that way, it spills over into how they are in other
relationships. It spills over into how they are at work. So, it’s not… You
know, it has a very positive ripple effect.
00:40:23
Wyatt: Is there other things, questions, that we didn’t ask you today that have
come up with couples before?
Bader: One. One line I was thinking of that I sometimes say to couples
that might be a nice place for me to end or think about is that if you can
change what you do or what you say when your partner is being a jerk,
because it is inevitable that our partners will sometimes be a jerk. So, if
you can respond… If you can change what you do or what you say in those
moments, you’ll change yourself and you’ll change your life.
Wile: Let me add on to that, which is… And when you fail and when
you…at any given moment, you respond to your partner’s being a jerk
by being a jerk yourself, you have a second chance because you can come
back 10 minutes later or an hour later, a day later and confess having been
a jerk, and start a more collaborative discussion about the arguments you
had. There’s always second chances.
Wyatt: I really appreciate having you both. Thank you very much.
Bader: Thank you.
Wile: It was a pleasure.

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Notes…

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COUPLES THERAPY: AN INTRODUCTION

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 Psychotherapy.net

Video Credits
CREATED BY
Dana Carr, MA
Randall Wyatt, PhD
EXECUTIVE PRODUCERS
Randall Wyatt, PhD
Victor Yalom, PhD
ASSOCIATE PRODUCERS
Dana Carr, MA
Ben Yalom
DIRECTOR
Ben Yalom
EDITOR
Reuben Maness
CAMERAS
Reuben Maness
Ben Yalom
Alexander Lewis
SOUND
David Hodge
MUSIC
Fred Heide
PARTICIPATING PSYCHOLOGISTS
Ellyn Bader, PhD
Daniel Wile, PhD
Randall Wyatt, PhD

Copyright © 2002, 2006 Psychotherapy.net, LLC. All rights reserved

37
COUPLES THERAPY: AN INTRODUCTION

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 Psychotherapy.net

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Watching Videos
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COUPLES THERAPY: AN INTRODUCTION

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 Psychotherapy.net

About the Contributors

VIDEO PARTICIPANTS
Ellyn Bader, PhD, Featured Therapist, is the co-founder of The Couples
Institute (with her husband Peter Pearson, Ph.D.) and is the co-author
of In Quest of the Mythical Mate: A Developmental Approach to Diagnosis
and Treatment in Couples Therapy and Tell Me No Lies: How to Face the
Truth and Build a Loving Marriage. She trains therapists internationally in
couples therapy, and also leads marriage workshops with her husband.
Dan Wile, Phd, Featured Therapist, is is the developer of Collaborative
Couples Therapy, and the author of Couples Therapy: a Nontraditional
Approach, After the Honeymoon: How Conflict Can Improve Your
Relationship, and After the Fight: Using Your Disagreements to Build a
Stronger Relationship, as well as over 20 articles and chapters.

MANUAL AUTHORS
Randall C. Wyatt, PhD, Editor-in-Chief of Psychotherapy.net, is
Director of Professional Training at the California School of Professional
Psychology, San Francisco at Alliant International University and a
practicing psychologist in Oakland, California.
Erika L. Seid, MA, LMFT, Educational Programs Manager at
Psychotherapy.net, is a practicing psychotherapist in the San Francisco Bay
Area, specializing in cultural issues and sexual offender treatment.

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COUPLES THERAPY: AN INTRODUCTION

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 Psychotherapy.net

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