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![independent studies…
• ‘In focus groups, members of the profession
and alumni said they believe that students
who graduate from the program [at UNH]
are a step ahead of new law school graduates;
• When evaluated based on simulated client interviews,
students in the program outperformed lawyers who had been
admitted to practice within the last two years; and
• The only significant predictor of simulated client interview
performance was whether or not the interviewer participated
in the Daniel Webster Scholar Honors Program. Neither LSAT
scores nor class rank was significantly predictive of
interview performance’ (my emphasis) 6](https://image.slidesharecdn.com/mahargscosgoodeslides-171116211504/75/Maharg-sc-osgoode-slides-7-2048.jpg)
![training of SCs
‘The best way to learn how to do standardized
patients is to do it along side of someone who has
already done it before. It’s [the] apprenticeship
system.’
Wallace, P. (1997) Following the threads of an innovation: the
history of standardized patients in medical education, Caduceus, A
Humanities Journal for Medicine and the Health Sciences,
Department of Medical Humanities, Southern Illinois University
School of Medicine, 13, 2, 5-28.](https://image.slidesharecdn.com/mahargscosgoodeslides-171116211504/75/Maharg-sc-osgoode-slides-15-2048.jpg)
![2000 Research Study
Law Society of England & Wales
Study
1
Clients talking about their solicitors:
‘I sent my former solicitor packing because she wouldn’t
listen. That is absolutely fundamental; this was my
case, only I knew the full circumstances’.
‘I went to [my current solicitor] because of her
reputation and expertise… She is a part-time Registrar
and has a big reputation as a specialist in this area but
she just doesn’t listen’.](https://image.slidesharecdn.com/mahargscosgoodeslides-171116211504/75/Maharg-sc-osgoode-slides-22-2048.jpg)
![2000 Research Study
Law Society of England & Wales
Study
1
‘She listens for part of what I have to say, and then
interrupts, saying something like “OK, I’ve got the
picture, what we’ll do is ...” and she hasn’t really got
the picture, she’s only got half the facts.
I think it’s partly because she so busy and also
because she’s simply not used to giving clients a
voice. What’s more she has actually made me
frightened of expressing my views.
I am about to change to another solicitor’.
[continued]](https://image.slidesharecdn.com/mahargscosgoodeslides-171116211504/75/Maharg-sc-osgoode-slides-23-2048.jpg)
![2000 Research Study
Law Society of England & Wales
Study
1
• ‘I like my current solicitor because I can have a chat with her, I
trust her ... ... The other solicitor — I was just a file for him,
but for [her current solicitor] I’m a real person and that comes
across in court’.
• ‘I wanted the law to be explained. ... The way the solicitor
views the client is important. He has to be interested in our
views’.
• ‘They must be able to give you time. If solicitors haven’t got
enough time, they can’t get enough out of you. You have to
have time to be able to tell your story’.
• ‘I never liked him. ... we couldn’t have had a solicitor like him
for this [matter]; I think he was perfectly competent, but there
was no sympathy’.](https://image.slidesharecdn.com/mahargscosgoodeslides-171116211504/75/Maharg-sc-osgoode-slides-24-2048.jpg)
Maharg sc osgoode slides
The Simulated Client Initiative (SCI) trains standardized clients or simulated clients (SCs) to assess law student interviewing skills. SCs are trained over multiple days to role play client scenarios consistently. They provide validity and reliability in assessment comparable to law teachers. The SCI now operates at several universities. Research shows clients value empathy, respect and being listened to by lawyers. However, studies find experienced lawyers are no better than trainees at client communication. The SCI could challenge legal education approaches and implications were discussed for Osgoode Hall Law School.
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Maharg sc osgoode slides
- 1. Paul Maharg November 2017 http://paulmaharg.com/slides http://zeugma.typepad.com/sci Thesimulated client initiative: A portrait of the outsider as teacher
- 2. preview 1.What is theSimulated Client Initiative (SCI), and what are SCs? 2.Current uses & SC training 3.Why would we want to do this? 4.Implications for legal education Slides available at: http://paulmaharg.com/slides http://zeugma.typepad.com/sci 1
- 3. 1. What isthe Simulated Client Initiative (SCI) and what are SCs?
- 4. Simulated Client Initiative(SCI): our hypothesis back in 2005 With proper training and carefully designed assessment procedures, Standardised or Simulated Clients (SCs) can assess important aspects of client interviewing with validity and reliability comparable to assessment by law teachers.
- 5. aims • develop apractical and cost-effective method to assess the effectiveness of lawyer-client communication which correlates assessment with the degree of client satisfaction & confidence. • ie answer the following questions… 1.Is our current system of teaching and assessing interviewing skills sufficiently reliable and valid? 2.Can the Simulated Patient method be translated successfully to the legal domain? 3.Is the method of Simulated Client training and assessment more reliable, valid and cost-effective than the current system at the Glasgow Graduate School of Law (GGSL)?
- 6. results from theGGSL pilot Questions Results 1 Is our current system of teaching and assessing interviewing skills sufficiently 1. reliable? 2. valid? 1. No 2. No 2 Can the Simulated Patient method be translated successfully to the legal domain? Yes 3 Is the method of Simulated Client training and assessment more 1. reliable, 2. valid 3. cost-effective than the current system? 1. Yes 2. Yes 3. Yes
- 7. independent studies… • ‘Infocus groups, members of the profession and alumni said they believe that students who graduate from the program [at UNH] are a step ahead of new law school graduates; • When evaluated based on simulated client interviews, students in the program outperformed lawyers who had been admitted to practice within the last two years; and • The only significant predictor of simulated client interview performance was whether or not the interviewer participated in the Daniel Webster Scholar Honors Program. Neither LSAT scores nor class rank was significantly predictive of interview performance’ (my emphasis) 6
- 8. what changed forus…? • We made what the client thinks important in the most salient way for the student: an assessment where most of the grade is given by the client • We did not conclude that all aspects of client interviewing can be assessed by SCs – We focus the assessment on aspects we believe can be accurately evaluated by non-lawyers – We focus the assessment on initial interview (which has been extended at one centre to an advice-giving second interview) • This has changed the way we enable students, trainees and lawyers to learn interviewing & client-facing ethical behaviour
- 9. eg assessment criterion2 of eight 2. I felt the student lawyer listened to me. This item is designed to assess the degree to which the lawyer can listen carefully to you. These criteria focus especially on the early part of the meeting when the client should be encouraged to tell their story and concerns in their own words. This entails active listening – where it is necessary for the interview structure or the lawyer’s understanding of your narrative. The lawyer will not interrupt, cut you off, talk over you or rush you in conversation. The lawyer reacts to your responses appropriately. The lawyer may take notes where appropriate, but if the lawyer does so, the lawyer should not lose much eye contact with you. To some extent in this item we are concerned with what the lawyer does not do that facilitates the interview. 8
- 10. 1 2 34 5 Lawyer prevents you from talking by interrupting, cutting off, talking over, rushing you. Takes over the conversation prematurely as if the lawyer already knows all the answers. Lawyer limits your opportunity to talk by interrupting, cutting you off, etc. You are allowed to answer specific questions but are not allowed to expand on topics. Lawyer rarely interrupts or cuts off or rushes you. The lawyer reacts to your responses appropriately in order to allow you to tell your story. More interested in notes taken than in eye-contact with you. The lawyer is clearly listening closely to you. If the lawyer interrupts, it is only to assist you in telling the story more effectively. Lawyer provides opportunities for you to lead the discussion where appropriate. Good eye contact and non-verbal clues. The lawyer is an excellent listener and speaks only when it is clearly helpful to you telling your story. Lawyer uses silence and other non-verbal facilitators to give you an opportunity to expand. Excellent eye contact and non- verbal cues. 9
- 11. 1 2 34 5 Lawyer prevents you from talking by interrupting, cutting off, talking over, rushing you. Takes over the conversation prematurely as if the lawyer already knows all the answers. Lawyer limits your opportunity to talk by interrupting, cutting you off, etc. You are allowed to answer specific questions but are not allowed to expand on topics. Lawyer rarely interrupts or cuts off or rushes you. The lawyer reacts to your responses appropriately in order to allow you to tell your story. More interested in notes taken than in eye-contact with you. The lawyer is clearly listening closely to you. If the lawyer interrupts, it is only to assist you in telling the story more effectively. Lawyer provides opportunities for you to lead the discussion where appropriate. Good eye contact and non-verbal clues. The lawyer is an excellent listener and speaks only when it is clearly helpful to your telling your story. Lawyer uses silence and other non-verbal facilitators to give you an opportunity to expand. Excellent eye contact and non- verbal cues. 10
- 12. 2. Where isthe SCI, and how are SCs trained?
- 13. Professor Paul Maharg| CC BY-NC-ND 2.5 CANADA 12
- 14. current status ofSCI University of Strathclyde Law School WS (Writers to the Signet) Society, Edinburgh University of New Hampshire Law School The Australian National University College of Law Northumbria University Law School Kwansei Gakuin University Law School (Osaka) SRA – Qualifying Lawyer Transfer Scheme Law Society of Ireland Hong Kong University Faculty of Law Adelaide University Law School The Chinese University of Hong Kong Faculty of Law National Centre for Skills in Social Care, London Nottingham Trent University Law School Osgoode Hall Law School?
- 15. training of SCs ‘Thebest way to learn how to do standardized patients is to do it along side of someone who has already done it before. It’s [the] apprenticeship system.’ Wallace, P. (1997) Following the threads of an innovation: the history of standardized patients in medical education, Caduceus, A Humanities Journal for Medicine and the Health Sciences, Department of Medical Humanities, Southern Illinois University School of Medicine, 13, 2, 5-28.
- 16. SC training day1: script conference • read script as group • discuss the roles and unconscious bias • discuss SCs’ feelings, reactions; amend the script • clear up ambiguities re role of lawyer • facilitator uses SC feedback to modify the scenario
- 17. SC training day2: practising the role There’s a need for the SCs to calibrate: • Body language • Tone of voice • Attitudinal swings • Dealing with the lawyer’s open questions… • Improvising on the lawyer’s closed questions… • Performance analysis on video review: ‘What prompted you to say…?’ ‘How did you feel…?’ And to: • Be aware of their orientation towards lawyer at first sight • Respond congruently to the lawyer • Consult their internal ‘invigilator’…
- 18. SC training days3 & 4: assessing lawyers/law students • We discuss the marking system, and form a common understanding of it • SCs view and mark videos, comparing to ‘standard’ • SCs view each other’s ‘live’ performances with lawyers & actors and assess lawyers & actors • Process repeated until everyone has role-played at least once, ideally three times • Rich comment on performance • Marks are collated in the room (suspense factor…) • SCs are also trained to give formative feedback
- 19. after initial training? •SCs role-play clients with students, real lawyers and other professionals • SCs are given refresher training on the scenario • If they are trained on a new scenario they will have the same pattern of training • They should form a community of practice with two core members of staff – ideally, admin + academic to: – improve practice – suggest ways they may be used inside or outside the law school
- 20. 3. Why wouldwe want to do this?
- 21. 2000 Research Study LawSociety of England & Wales • Interviewed 44 clients of 21 different solicitors in the north of England. • 50% said that they had previously used a solicitor whom they did not like. • The most common complaint was lack of respect, followed by a lack of interest in the client, and then poor communication. Hillary Sommerlad & David Wall: Legally Aided Clients and Their Solicitors: Qualitative Perspectives on Quality and Legal Aid, 2-6 (Research Study No. 34 The Law Society 2000) Study 1
- 22. 2000 Research Study LawSociety of England & Wales Study 1 Clients talking about their solicitors: ‘I sent my former solicitor packing because she wouldn’t listen. That is absolutely fundamental; this was my case, only I knew the full circumstances’. ‘I went to [my current solicitor] because of her reputation and expertise… She is a part-time Registrar and has a big reputation as a specialist in this area but she just doesn’t listen’.
- 23. 2000 Research Study LawSociety of England & Wales Study 1 ‘She listens for part of what I have to say, and then interrupts, saying something like “OK, I’ve got the picture, what we’ll do is ...” and she hasn’t really got the picture, she’s only got half the facts. I think it’s partly because she so busy and also because she’s simply not used to giving clients a voice. What’s more she has actually made me frightened of expressing my views. I am about to change to another solicitor’. [continued]
- 24. 2000 Research Study LawSociety of England & Wales Study 1 • ‘I like my current solicitor because I can have a chat with her, I trust her ... ... The other solicitor — I was just a file for him, but for [her current solicitor] I’m a real person and that comes across in court’. • ‘I wanted the law to be explained. ... The way the solicitor views the client is important. He has to be interested in our views’. • ‘They must be able to give you time. If solicitors haven’t got enough time, they can’t get enough out of you. You have to have time to be able to tell your story’. • ‘I never liked him. ... we couldn’t have had a solicitor like him for this [matter]; I think he was perfectly competent, but there was no sympathy’.
- 25. summary: clients andtheir solicitors • For many clients, their engagement with the law was not simply about achieving a result. • Their responses indicated that the process itself was important. • Empathy and respect were not luxury items: they were fundamental to the role and the service.
- 26. summary: what doclients dislike? • Inaccessibility • Lack of communication • Lack of empathy and understanding • Lack of respect
- 27. competence in clientcommunication • Study by Paterson, Moorhead, Sherr: • 143 actual 1st interviews – 24 % trainee solicitors – 76% experienced solicitors • 70% at least 6 years • 23% more than 11 years • High percentages of ineffective interviews • Experienced solicitors generally no better than trainee solicitors Paterson, Alan and Moorhead, R. and Sherr, A. (2003) What clients know: client perspectives and legal competence. International Journal of the Legal Profession, 10 (1). pp. 5-35 Study 2
- 28. Study 2 • 51% failedto get client agreement to advice or plan of action • 76% failed to confirm with client the solicitor’s understanding of the facts • 85% failed to ask before ending whether there was anything else the client wanted to discuss competence in client communication
- 29. 2 • Experienced solicitors: –Used less legalese – Better at “filling in the gaps” – Rated their own interview performance higher than did trainee solicitors • But the clients saw no difference in performance between trainees and experienced solicitors competence in client communication Study
- 30. 2 ‘Being ‘‘client centred,’’… is about paying attention to the practical and emotional needs of the client, not necessarily agreeing with the client’s motives, policy or philosophy and not necessarily doing what the client says they want. The client centred lawyer will listen to the client in order to advise on all options, as well as showing what they think is best for the client’. Paterson, Alan and Moorhead, R. and Sherr, A. (2003) What clients know: client perspectives and legal competence. International Journal of the Legal Profession, 10 (1). pp. 5-35, 12. See also Felstiner, W.L.F., Pettit, B. (2002) Paternalism, power and respect in lawyer-client relations, in Sanders, J., Hamilton, V.L., eds, Handbook of Justice Research in Law, Kluwer Academic Publishers, New York, 135-154. Study
- 31. 4. Implications forlegal education?
- 32. SCs: people asco-producers, co-designers The SC approach challenges: 1. Curriculum methods 2. Ethics of the client encounter 3. The cognitive poverty of conventional law school assessment 4. Law school as a self-regarding, monolithic construct 5. Law school categories of employment 6. The curricular isolation of clinic within law schools 7. Hollowed-out skills rhetoric 8. Conventional forms of regulation by regulatory bodies 9. The role of regulator, as encourager of innovation & radical reform…? 10.Disciplinary boundaries – what about a SC Unit that’s interdisciplinary? 11.Local jurisdictional practices: how might such a project work globally?
- 33. SCs @ Osgoode? •Can we see a use for the method at Osgoode? In Canadian legal education generally? • Would you be interested in being part of the project? • I’ll train SCs… • We would want our SCs to form a community, with interested students, faculty, administrators • SCs could be used in other disciplines, other institutions, too. • And we’d want to form research projects based upon their use.
- 34. more information… 1. Websites: 1.See Simulated Client Initiative, http://zeugma.typepad.com/sci 2. these slides @ http://paulmaharg.com. 2. Barton, K., Cunningham, C.D., Jones, G.T., Maharg, P. (2006). Valuing what clients think: standardized clients and the assessment of communicative competence. Clinical Law Review, 13, 1, 1-65. 3. Maharg, P. (2007). Transforming Legal Education: Learning and Teaching the Law in the Early Twenty-first Century. Aldershot, Ashgate Publishing, chapter 2, 64-67. 4. Daniel Webster Scholar Honors Program: https://law.unh.edu/sites/default/files/media/dwsonepager2016update.p df 5. Barton, K., Garvey, J.B., Maharg (2013). ‘You are here’: learning law, practice and professionalism in the academy. In Bankowski, Z., Maharg, P. del Mar, M., editors, The Arts and the Legal Academy. Beyond Text in Legal Education, vol 1. Routledge.
- 35.